Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

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german2k01
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Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby german2k01 » Tue Dec 14, 2021 10:51 pm

Hello Guys,

I have a query. So you are done with an Assimil course +Grammar book and all that. Now your next goal is to start reading in your target language. So how do you make a decision in regards to picking up books that you would like to read and is there any ambiguity threshold that you aim for in terms of unknown words and author's style? Or do you like to pick up a totally different medium like a newspaper article?

Just to give you an example, people pick up Harry Potter books because they have read in English so there are aware of the plot so they do not mind plodding through so many unknown words while reading them in their target language. I don't know if it is the best use of their time for making inroads in acquiring the language?

I wonder if is there a gradual transition from books to books one can aim for and still stay in the comprehensible input threshold level throughout their reading process and then reach their final goal like C1?

Thanks
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Re: Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby Le Baron » Tue Dec 14, 2021 11:38 pm

I'm not clear on this final sentence:
german2k01 wrote:I wonder if is there a gradual transition from books to books one can aim for and still stay in the comprehensible input threshold level throughout their reading process and then reach their final goal like C1?

I think the level measured officially as 'C1' is a long-term goal. That what someone 'post Assimil' or whatever, should be aiming for - if they are aiming for any sort measured gain - is B1 or ideally B2: functional fluency.

As for my own reading choices, I fear I may be repeating myself in saying I choose 'easy readers' and graduate from there. At the same time, yes I read short news articles, Wikipedia articles (as much as possible), book blurbs, comics. Novels and non-fiction books are a trial-and-error thing. You try one and if it succeeds it succeeds. I've found that you graduate to 'harder' books before you learn many words that will still turn up in easy-readers and even children's books. The words are everywhere; all over the place and a lifetime's worth of accumulation.
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Re: Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby BeaP » Wed Dec 15, 2021 7:22 am

A lot of people don't use Assimil, and the type of textbook you choose matters a lot from this aspect. Several textbooks give a much wider vocabulary than Assimil, and old-school textbooks contain long reading exercises that prepare you better for practising this skill. I personally don't believe in graded readers above A2, as there is a lot of authentic material from the B1 level. You can try popular fiction (detective stories, mysteries, romantic novels, what you like), articles, and later you can move on to literature and more academic stuff. I'm with Le Baron on this: it's a trial-and-error process for me as well. I've read Harry Potter once, in English, and I didn't find it particularly easy linguistically, especially not the later volumes. If I wanted to read something I'm familiar with (use a dual text), I'd choose a short story. I regularly read for my daughters, and my experience is that children's books contain a lot of obscure vocabulary, never used in real life. I stay away from children's books in my target languages, but young adult is OK I think for those who like reading these kinds of things.

The progression is something like that in my opinion:
A1-A2: graded readers, textbooks (forum posts, social media)
B1: popular fiction, self-help, most bestsellers, gossip magazines
B2: newspaper articles, science articles for the layman, easier literature (not very old classics, most contemporary)
C1: postmodern literature, essays, academic texts
C2: very old literature (archaic language) and novels written in dialects

I try to balance intensive and extensive reading. I use novels for extensive reading (pleasure), I look up only a couple of words, and usually don't re-read things. I study newspaper articles intensively: look up all unknown words, observe structures, work with the text, try to reproduce it in some way. Newspaper articles have a huge variety, I don't just read the news per se. I read about economical, social, cultural and scientific topics, anything. I don't read wikipedia, because I find it boring. I prefer texts that have a clear personality in the background, contain an opinion.
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Re: Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby rdearman » Wed Dec 15, 2021 11:39 am

WARNING: I am not a good role model !

So I am one of the few people (it seems) in the world who doesn't have perfectionist tendencies. I am happy to learn without a plan, picking up bits and pieces as I go. I'm quite happy to skip along reading Astronomy books, switching to a sci-fi novel then over to "classic literature", while reading comics. My evaluation of reading materials goes like this.

  1. Is it a Harry Potter book? Burn it and spit on the ashes.
  2. Do I already have it? Read it.
  3. Can I get it for free? Read it.
  4. If I have to buy it, does it interest me? If yes, see if I have something else, read that instead. (I'm cheap)

I don't read one thing intensively, then something else extensively. What I tend to do is start the book reading extensively, then about page 25, read everything intensively looking up everything until page 27, then switching back extensively.

My ambiguity threshold runs from 0% to 100%, and I have absolutely no problem with having to look up every single word. Although, I tend to get bored quickly with all the looking up and pickup a different book and return to that one later (or never).

I haven't actually tested the 0% threshold in the wild, since I haven't really read anything in a TL where I didn't have to look up at least one word of the book.

Also, regarding your first paragraph about grammar books and Assimil. I'm much more likely to have:
  1. Never even bothered to read the grammar book. (Although I would have bought one for show)
  2. Never actually completed the textbook and just started reading books and watching films, and having conversation exchanges with natives.

So my method is a bit crap and will definitely not get you to C1 in 3 months or whatever the latest marketing timescale is. But it will get you there eventually (current running average is about 20 years for me.)

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Re: Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby Beli Tsar » Wed Dec 15, 2021 12:26 pm

german2k01 wrote:I wonder if is there a gradual transition from books to books one can aim for and still stay in the comprehensible input threshold level throughout their reading process and then reach their final goal like C1?

It really depends what you mean. Proper comprehensible input is usually taken to mean, at a minimum, 95%, and ideally 98%+ comprehension. For most languages this is simply impossible when you have just finished Assimil + a Grammar book, or even if you have completed 10 grammar books. There just aren't enough books that are that easy. For big languages with many graded readers, then it's possible to read a lot of these and then transition to easy translated fiction, and go from there.

But for most of us, and most languages, even if you find the easiest reading material you can you will probably find you need to use a dictionary and do some intensive reading of texts that are not quite comprehensible at first, and/or do a lot of intensive vocabulary study.

But some intensive reading and vocabulary study can certainly get you to the point where this intensive reading is enjoyable and not too much hard work, and you can make a lot of progress that way.
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Re: Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby einzelne » Wed Dec 15, 2021 1:53 pm

german2k01 wrote:I wonder if is there a gradual transition from books to books one can aim for and still stay in the comprehensible input threshold level throughout their reading process and then reach their final goal like C1?


I doubt it exists that's why smart people came up with the idea of intensive/extensive reading.

Other than that, I agree, with Le Baron: it's a process of trial and error.
Sometimes it leads you to surprising discoveries. For instance, I was really surprised to discover that some modernist books have a rather limited vocabulary. The difficulty of Virginia Woolf stems from her stream-of-consciousness technique, not from her vocabulary.

It happens in your native language too. You just forgot about it because it usually happens when you're 11-13 year old. I remember I was visiting my friends who moved to America and gave their son China Miéville's Railsea as a present. He was 13 year old, if I'm not mistaken and he told me about his failed attempt to read it: "It's weird. I know all the words but I just can't figure out the meaning."
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Re: Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Dec 15, 2021 3:55 pm

That long list was worth reading for this one:
rdearman wrote:Pre-1650 garb required by all participants.

:lol:
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Re: Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby german2k01 » Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:12 pm

The progression is something like that in my opinion:
A1-A2: graded readers, textbooks (forum posts, social media)
B1: popular fiction, self-help, most bestsellers, gossip magazines
B2: newspaper articles, science articles for the layman, easier literature (not very old classics, most contemporary)
C1: postmodern literature, essays, academic texts
C2: very old literature (archaic language) and novels written in dialects


That's quite a helpful guide for choosing appropriate content based on your current level.
However, where do you place books aimed at 8-12 years old?
Also, Posts/Answers on Quora? I always feel like reading posts in German there requires really high level of competence in the language.
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Re: Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby german2k01 » Wed Dec 15, 2021 6:15 pm

As for my own reading choices, I fear I may be repeating myself in saying I choose 'easy readers' and graduate from there.


Can you quantify it roughly in numbers? 5-7; 10-12; before you graduate?
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Re: Reading & Ambiguity Threshold in your TL?

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Wed Dec 15, 2021 9:23 pm

I did Assimil in French. I fully intended to finish the entire French in Action textbook I had started before Assimil, but I realized that even with only five chapters under my belt I could already read the last chapter, even if I didn’t remotely know all the grammar in the book. French can be just that transparent to a native English speaker. So I started reading a young adult fantasy book from the library. It was rough. There were whole paragraphs, even whole pages I didn’t understand. But I made myself read each word and just move on. Adult contemporary fiction was actually easier. I’m now at just over 5,000 pages of French reading. I understand everything in a bestselling detective novel, except for a couple of vocabulary words each page, and even then I can tell you what the unknown word is doing. (“That’s some kind of marine animal. That’s an adjective describing the victim’s hair…”) I’ve somehow just absorbed a passive understanding of the entire French grammar? I don’t know how, but it just works. This was all extensive reading, I use the dictionary once in a blue moon if a particular unknown word is key to the narrative, and it rarely is.
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