Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

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Le Baron
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:32 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:I believe Einzelne was just saying that this particular version of L-Ring (L1 audio/L2 text) was a bad idea, not that making something more comprehensible by using your native language was altogether a bad idea. I agree that it doesn't work for me (at least with highly comprehensible input), but if it works for someone else then I don't see it as a bad idea.

Yes indeed. I made the same observation in that slightly heated discussion about L-R. Simply because I can't see the point of it and I don't think it works to do anything at all. More likely just causes confusion.

My opinion is tedious I know, but I think you learn (in this case) German by reading, speaking and listening to German. Not with elaborate and extensive balancing acts between native/target language.
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby german2k01 » Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:39 pm

What is the 'right' translation? Translation is an artistic interpretation rendered into another language for your ease. The point of translations is to remove the burden of total comprehension. Whilst that is useful in some way initially, it's some to do away with early. Like stabilisers on a bike (are they called 'training wheels' in the U.S?).


You can only delve into reading native materials and enjoy it when your proficiency is already on the higher end. It is very difficult to find materials that are totally suited to your level and to your preferences. I can not find a watered-down version of "Crime and Punishment" in German. So my only hope is to wait for a few more years when my reading proficiency is on the higher end or trudge it along with endless look-ups in a dictionary. I think using a bilingual book cuts short that timeline and you can still enjoy it when you are in a low intermediate level.

The key question should be asked how much reliance one should depend upon it using such language tools? Whether should it be used at all or not? Is it a hindrance to your path to developing reading proficiency?
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby AllSubNoDub » Thu Nov 11, 2021 10:47 pm

Le Baron wrote:My opinion is tedious I know, but I think you learn (in this case) German by reading, speaking and listening to German. Not with elaborate and extensive balancing acts between native/target language.

No one could disagree with that (I hope). I must admit, I have tried a lot of L-Ring in my day, and it feels like operating a contraption you bought during an impulsive moment while watching a 3AM informercial (for just 3 easy payments of $19.95) that has you juggling while riding a unicycle and playing the harmonica. It yields perfect results. Of course, if it didn't work, it's cause you did it wrong.

BUT, I do feel like grounding your understanding in your native language through bilingual texts can and does work for most people. I have taken translation to the extreme in Spanish (works well in closely related languages). Though I do have the explicit goal of being able to translate and interpret some day, so I'm willing to pay the price if this ends up becoming a bit inefficient for just learning the language (so far it has not).
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:03 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:No one could disagree with that (I hope). I must admit, I have tried a lot of L-Ring in my day, and it feels like operating a contraption you bought during an impulsive moment while watching a 3AM informercial (for just 3 easy payments of $19.95) that has you juggling while riding a unicycle and playing the harmonica. It yields perfect results. Of course, if it didn't work, it's cause you did it wrong.

BUT, I do feel like grounding your understanding in your native language through bilingual texts can and does work for most people. I have taken translation to the extreme in Spanish (works well in closely related languages). Though I do have the explicit goal of being able to translate and interpret some day, so I'm willing to pay the price if this ends up becoming a bit inefficient for just learning the language (so far it has not).

I also use translation, I'm not superman! (only at the weekends, now there are fewer telephone boxes). I use google's translation and sometimes DeepL to try figure out awkward constructions. I even check out translations of books just to see how the translator rendered a particular sentence or passage which may help me understand it. Translations can be good. I'm not sure they should be the default running in parallel.

And what you say about related languages is on the whole also true. If it can be used judiciously and as a tool, rather than the entire basis of the learning. I admit that the last sentence is my own opinion.
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:13 pm

german2k01 wrote:You can only delve into reading native materials and enjoy it when your proficiency is already on the higher end. It is very difficult to find materials that are totally suited to your level and to your preferences. I can not find a watered-down version of "Crime and Punishment" in German. So my only hope is to wait for a few more years when my reading proficiency is on the higher end or trudge it along with endless look-ups in a dictionary. I think using a bilingual book cuts short that timeline and you can still enjoy it when you are in a low intermediate level.

The key question should be asked how much reliance one should depend upon it using such language tools? Whether should it be used at all or not? Is it a hindrance to your path to developing reading proficiency?

Why does it have to be Crime & Punishment? If there is no watered-down version of that (though I think there is), then read a different book. I don't accept the view that reading enjoyment is not present without reading full native materials at high-end proficiency. This would mean all reading before that stage is and has to be a boring chore, but it isn't!

Do you want to enjoy Crime & Punishment or learn German? If you want to enjoy C&P right now, just scratch that itch and read it in English/Urdu.

You are allowed to do exactly as you please, but because it was posted as a forum question I think it's legit to question it. I think you are going about the process in an unnecessarily difficult way. Just read progressively harder books, do associated grammar work, learn words, listen to German audio/video (maybe copying speech patterns), then progressively speak. There is no other way. None that involves cloistered reading of long, hard classic novels. It doesn't work.
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby einzelne » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:20 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:I believe Einzelne was just saying that this particular version of L-Ring (L1 audio/L2 text) was a bad idea, not that making something more comprehensible by using your native language was altogether a bad idea.


There's a thread on the L-R method where I describe how I used the L-R method successfully. Then there was a heated discussion on what actually the L-R method is and I realized that I just used the common sense and didn't exactly practiced the L-R method.

I think the translation into your language can be very helpful. But I'm a control freak and never could trust them (well, because the Russian tradition of translating fiction texts is not that great). So I always used the pop-up dictionary to double check the meaning. I used translation only to make a good faithful translation of unclear passages. I wrote translations on the margins (similar to what Le Baron demonstrated with Gide's La Symphonie Pastorale). After that, I never used translation while rereading or relistening text. Personally, I think jumping from one text to another is a bad strategy. That's why I never pratice the L-R method in its pure form (and, personally, I doubt it's the best way to learn languages).
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Nov 11, 2021 11:46 pm

I don't want to be an arse though. Translating difficult sentences gives a lot of instant relief (and learning). So maybe a parallel text could be read in a way where you are mostly just glancing at the translation as and when needed. Until it isn't needed.
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby luke » Fri Nov 12, 2021 1:43 am

einzelne wrote:Given the average length of sentences in Dostoevsky and the differences in syntax among English and German, which are quite substantial, so deconstructing sentences in L1, finding the corresponding parts in L2, connecting all the dots on the fly would be quite a challenge even for a seasoned learner.

Definitely non-trivial. Also has the challenge that neither English nor German are the original language of the novel, so you have 2 translators to deal with.

But german2k01 was asking about reading Crime and Punishment German without a dictionary, so given that constraint, I think the suggestion is worth considering.

And he's accomplished some other pretty stiff challenges.
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby einzelne » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:20 am

luke wrote:And he's accomplished some other pretty stiff challenges.


Even so... Yes, as a grumpy and frank Slav, I think that bad advice is still bad advice even for a talented learner.
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Re: Reading "Crime & Punishment" in bilingual format or without it? How long does it take?

Postby AllSubNoDub » Fri Nov 12, 2021 3:56 am

einzelne wrote:
luke wrote:And he's accomplished some other pretty stiff challenges.


Even so... Yes, as a grumpy and frank Slav, I think that bad advice is still bad advice even for a talented learner.

That graph makes me think 90% of the forum members here are Slavs.
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