Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

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Le Baron
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Oct 24, 2021 12:31 pm

german2k01 wrote:
So, 27,398 words per day is your "micro" goal. Or about 109 pages per day given a word count of 250 per page.


Finally someone with an analytical mind. Reading 109 pages per day is doable. This was the answer I was looking for my micro goal.
Thanks.

This is my opinion of course, but this sort of number crunching approach is completely unnecessary and one of the most bizarre and frankly tedious things I see in online language learning discussion. Why would anyone do that? Why would anyone set a goal fixed in concrete (though with completely arbitrary targets: 8-10m words? why? how is that calculated?) with that strange notion of mechanical precision?

Can you imagine ever getting to grips with e.g. classical music by designating a listening timetable where you are set to 'enjoy Beethoven's string trios on Thursdays'? And to listen to 50 million bars of music. It's extremely silly stuff. No-one reads like this in their native languages, barely even for study. It's about quality extraction from sufficient quantity, not an accounting exercise.

It seems to flow from this old idea that 'maths people' are also by default languages and musical theory people. There is some overlap, but it's not a given and the simple fact of interest certainly doesn't automatically translate to quality of output. I am a maths person, not an obsessive or insistent that it must guide every facet of my life and activities, but I know its value. I don't think it extends to petty accounting measures for language learning.
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby german2k01 » Sun Oct 24, 2021 1:38 pm

Numbers give you a direction and allow you to break the whole problem into bite-size pieces. It is like eating the elephant by slicing it.
There are language learning tools such as LingQ where people can track their reading statistics and learners actually sat for the exams in their target languages and what levels on CEFR level they had actually achieved. For example, if this quality extraction alone is the only factor, then the aforesaid learner was able to achieve C1 level why not C2 level in his reading when he had read 3 million words in his TL.
There is another user who read over 5 million words in German and took a Dialang text and scored C1 but not C2.
Another benefit is, it allows you to develop a habit of doing the same thing without thinking about it like brushing teeth.
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby iguanamon » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:05 pm

Learning a language is not an equation to be solved. For many years I have seen many people come and go from the forum. I've seen learners who were methodical to the point of obsession fall by the wayside because they never grasped that language-learning is not an equation with precise answers. Perfectionism can also play into this with devastating effect. Life often gets in the way of language-learners' goals. Right now, I'm trying to read a lot despite a busy life in my native language and having other interests and activities. If I read ten pages or forty pages in a day doesn't matter. The fact that I read matters. I'll eventually get through my reading. The day will come when I only have to look up a word every few pages in Catalan. I'll get there.

Some seem obsessed with quantifying the un-quantifiable- "How long does it take?" If anyone asks me that, my answer is "I don't know. It takes what it takes". Sometimes learners try to make language-learning more difficult than it needs to be. The simple formula after the basics that almost always works is "read a lot; listen a lot; write some; speak when you can". If a learner does enough of that, they will be successful. Amounts of each will vary, especially for learners who do not live in a TL country. The process takes time, a lot of time, more time than many of us realize or want to accept. It takes what it takes.

As Leo babauta of ZenHabits.org says: The Best Goal Is No Goal
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Oct 24, 2021 2:34 pm

german2k01 wrote:There is another user who read over 5 million words in German and took a Dialang text and scored C1 but not C2.
Another benefit is, it allows you to develop a habit of doing the same thing without thinking about it like brushing teeth.

There's this confusion that counting the words somehow led to that outcome rather than just the reading. There's really no difference to reading a book for two weeks, then another for two weeks and this adding up to 24 books in a year. The number of words contained in them is irrelevant. The question of whether they assisted in your comprehension is very relevant.

Anyone who thinks counting to 24 is more difficult and less 'accurate' is bean counting, not extracting quality from reading.

Iguanamon's post above hits the nail squarely on the head.
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Sun Oct 24, 2021 3:56 pm

I agree that there is no magical number of pages that solves everything, but having goals and tracking progress does help maintain motivation. Because the intermediate plateau is a *slog* and any and all motivation helps. So aim for 10,000 pages, but know that you may need 10,000 more…. The first 10,000 have to be the hardest, right?
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby AllSubNoDub » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:33 pm

Dr. Paul Nation might disagree on a few points about progress not being quantifiable and therefore capable of being planned for.

How much input do you need to learn the most frequent 9,000 words?

No one's arguing that tracking and quantifying is required, but it is useful. On another thread someone used the analogy of using a hammer to drive a screw into a piece of wood - it works, but you'd be much better off using a screwdriver. Well, I prefer power tools myself, and I'll take every advantage I can get when it comes to language learning too. I prefer not tracking in words, pages, sentences, etc. (mainly because it's impractical and I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze), but I do prefer to track hours. Here's another guy who tracks hours who is literate in more languages than anyone in this thread :) :



I don't think it would have been possible for him to realize the amount of success he's had without tracking and planning (indeed, he would never have come to the conclusion that he would have to drop some languages in order to reach proficiency in others during his lifetime). Speaking of Dr. Arguelles, I've been going back and rewatching a lot of his old content now that he's been posting again and I think the below videos are extremely relevant to this thread:

Extensive Reading and Vocabulary Range
Selecting Appropriate Texts for Expanding Vocabulary Range Through Extensive Reading
Moving from Intermediate Toward Advanced

This was a speech given at the polyglot conference a few years backs that sums up the above videos but has better audio quality and a short Q&A afterwards (though a bit less detail):

Reading Literature in Foreign Languages: Tool, Techniques, Target
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby luke » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:40 pm

Le Baron wrote:
german2k01 wrote:
So, 27,398 words per day is your "micro" goal. Or about 109 pages per day given a word count of 250 per page.


Finally someone with an analytical mind. Reading 109 pages per day is doable. This was the answer I was looking for my micro goal.

Can you imagine ever getting to grips with e.g. classical music by designating a listening timetable where you are set to 'enjoy Beethoven's string trios on Thursdays'? And to listen to 50 million bars of music.

It seems to flow from this old idea that 'maths people' are also by default languages and musical theory people.

Hm. Language, music, math - all systems.

Also overlap with the trivium and quadrivium.

I may be as big of an anti-fan of SMART goals as you are, and perhaps for similar reasons. SMART goals lack the soft but considerable importance of things like passion, motivation, desire, etc.

But I guess those SMART people would say that motivation and passion can be measured by the completion of the SMART goals.

I do think it's an over-simplification, but will begrudgingly accede SMART goals are not without value.

(self-consciously removes his progress bars from this post) ;)
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby luke » Sun Oct 24, 2021 4:56 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:Dr. Paul Nation might disagree on a few points about progress not being quantifiable and therefore capable of being planned for.

How much input do you need to learn the most frequent 9,000 words?

That IS an interesting paper. Was going to ask you to post a summary, but it's short enough and well written enough to find 25 novels and he even gives their names.

Not suggesting that's as pertinent as the number 42, but still very helpful.

Muchas gracias, señor! (many thanks, my lord)

AllSubNoDub wrote:I don't think it would have been possible for him to realize the amount of success he's had without tracking and planning (indeed, he would never have come to the conclusion that he would have to drop some languages in order to reach proficiency in others during his lifetime). Speaking of Dr. Arguelles, I've been going back and rewatching a lot of his old content now that he's been posting again and I think the below videos are extremely relevant to this thread:

Extensive Reading and Vocabulary Range
Selecting Appropriate Texts for Expanding Vocabulary Range Through Extensive Reading
Moving from Intermediate Toward Advanced

If you happen to make any notes, perhaps in your language log, would be much appreciated.

I too re-watch some of his videos and like to note ideas in my language learning log for me and posterity.

(this time I will let the progress bar slip in) :)
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby Le Baron » Sun Oct 24, 2021 5:39 pm

AllSubNoDub wrote:Dr. Paul Nation might disagree on a few points about progress not being quantifiable and therefore capable of being planned for.

Well I probably disagree with Dr. Paul Nation. And all people who believe one can learn languages by the abacus method.
AllSubNoDub wrote:No one's arguing that tracking and quantifying is required, but it is useful. On another thread someone used the analogy of using a hammer to drive a screw into a piece of wood - it works, but you'd be much better off using a screwdriver. Well, I prefer power tools myself, and I'll take every advantage I can get when it comes to language learning too. I prefer not tracking in words, pages, sentences, etc. (mainly because it's impractical and I don't think the juice is worth the squeeze), but I do prefer to track hours. Here's another guy who tracks hours who is literate in more languages than anyone in this thread :)

Is he? Says who? I don't think it's healthy the way people fawn over Arguelles. Or any polyglot actually. These people have found their groove that worked for them and then pass on useful tidbits, some not so useful. For anyone to then believe they can walk in the same wagon ruts and get the same outcome is like those people who buy the same poncho Clint Eastwood wore in the Dollars Trilogy and think they look equally cool.

It's good to find things that work for learning, I'm sure everyone believes that, I do too. Does anyone really serious use a hammer for screws though? They may well use the wrong screwdriver or use the right one wrongly, but these are part of the learning curve too. In any case people quickly find out that hammers don't drive-in screws.
That's what people come to forums like this for, to see what's on offer and what might suit their way of learning. Or stuff to try out and keep or discard. If people think counting up '10 million words' or whatever will lead them to reading fluency, okay do it. What it practically involves is opening a book, reading the words printed inside it, looking up some of them and a bit of grammar explanation, then re-reading and understanding. Then doing the same with further books. All the numbers stuff around it is window dressing. All the spreadsheet stuff just cracking a nut with a sledgehammer, because the fact is that no matter how much numerical quantification someone does the acquisition of languages isn't speeded up. There are good ways and techniques for learning and trimming away time-wasting stuff and known cul-de-sacs will help bring down the time factor, but the way languages are acquired has barely altered.

I factored goals into my original reply: small chapters, moving methodically from book to book etc. It makes little difference if one writes these down on a list or not. All of this 'By July next year'... 'by 2023..' etc it just projection nonsense. Folk can just read books and get on with it and enjoy what they're doing. Bad news for aspiring polyglots: a language isn't a "project" you can plan like a military exercise and "complete" in some rapid time slot. It's something you will struggle with, make progress with, sometimes not, in relatively slow way in relation to modern impatience. It is also something you have to live, not constantly observe.
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Re: Reading goal for 2022 - need your advice?

Postby AllSubNoDub » Sun Oct 24, 2021 6:11 pm

Le Baron wrote:All the numbers stuff around it is window dressing. All the spreadsheet stuff just cracking a nut with a sledgehammer, because the fact is that no matter how much numerical quantification someone does the acquisition of languages isn't speeded up. There are good ways and techniques for learning and trimming away time-wasting stuff and known cul-de-sacs will help bring down the time factor, but the way languages are acquired has barely altered.


I won't dignify a response to putting into question Dr. Arguelles's abilities. I also won't try to talk you into tracking (that's your loss). Agree to disagree.

I will however maintain that if one's goal is to get as good in a language as quickly as possible, or if one has an extremely limited amount of time to devote to study (I hate to say it, but this forum is not what it used to be, and let's just say that a great many of its active members are people [retirees] who have a lot of free time to meander through language learning, while a lot of students and young professionals have moved onto Discord, Reddit, etc.), then tracking is essential to that end.
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