Declensions in MSA

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jimmy
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Declensions in MSA

Postby jimmy » Sat Oct 16, 2021 12:48 pm

hi,

The book that I read/follow it uses some sentences like these:

simple nominative form:
we use damma for this form and the form is used for definite nouns

nominative form:
we use dammatayn for this form and the form is used for indefinite nouns

simple accusative form:
we use fathah for this form and this form is used for definite nouns

accusative form :
we use fathatayn (double fathah) for this form and the form is used for indefinite nouns.

as you see both accusative and nominative cases are for same usage. Also, simple nominative and simple accusative are for same usage.

or , how / where can I find more comprehensive explanations specifically for this issue?
(preferably with the distinctions between their use)
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Re: Declensions in MSA

Postby Deinonysus » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:11 pm

I think that for this explanation they assume that you are familiar with the terms nominative and accusative so they don't explain the difference. I'll give you some examples:

أَكَلَ كَلْبٌ خُبْزًا
Akala kalbun ḫubzan
A dog ate bread

أَكَلَ ٱلْكَلْبُ ٱلْخُبْزَ
Akala l-kalbu l-ḫubza
The dog ate the bread

In each sentence, the word for dog is in the nominative case because the dog is performing the action (doing the eating), and the word for bread is in the accusative case because the action is done to it (it is eaten). But in the first sentence, the nouns are indefinite, or as your book calls them, "simple". In the second sentence, the nouns are definite.
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/daɪ.nə.ˈnaɪ.səs/

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Re: Declensions in MSA

Postby jimmy » Sat Oct 16, 2021 2:32 pm

Deinonysus wrote:I think that for this explanation they assume that you are familiar with the terms nominative and accusative so they don't explain the difference. I'll give you some examples:

أَكَلَ كَلْبٌ خُبْزًا
Akala kalbun ḫubzan
A dog ate bread

أَكَلَ ٱلْكَلْبُ ٱلْخُبْزَ
Akala l-kalbu l-ḫubza
The dog ate the bread

In each sentence, the word for dog is in the nominative case because the dog is performing the action (doing the eating), and the word for bread is in the accusative case because the action is done to it (it is eaten). But in the first sentence, the nouns are indefinite, or as your book calls them, "simple". In the second sentence, the nouns are definite.


thank you deinoysus for the explanations.
may I ask ,whether you also confirm ;

in fact ,it is already known that above , the dog was already definite. (or it is already known by the prefix of ال when the Word starts.
but the declension is completing the form. (they conform each other)?

Furthermore, may I also ask whether there are any else distinctions between the definite noun in accusative form and definite noun in nominative form when we exclude formal appearance?
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Re: Declensions in MSA

Postby Doitsujin » Sat Oct 16, 2021 6:40 pm

jimmy wrote:The book that I read/follow it uses some sentences like these:
You should throw away your grammar book and get a decent grammar for beginners.
There are many good grammars out there. For example:

Karin C. Ryding - A Reference Grammar of Modern Standard Arabic
Mohammad T. Alhawary - Modern Standard Arabic Grammar: A Learner′s Guide

The declension of regular Arabic singular nouns is actually pretty straightforward:
There are only 3 cases: nominative, genitive and accusative.
The endings are u/un, i/in and a/an respectively.
If the noun has an article or is a definitive noun because of other conditions (e.g. Iḍāfah, personal suffix etc.), use the ending without the "n."
Whether you have to use the ending for definitive or indefinite nouns only depends on the meaning that you want to express.
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Re: Declensions in MSA

Postby jimmy » Sat Oct 16, 2021 7:15 pm

Doitsujin wrote:
jimmy wrote:The book that I read/follow it uses some sentences like these:
You should throw away your grammar book and get a decent grammar for beginners.
There are many good grammars out there. For example:

Karin C. Ryding - A Reference Grammar of Modern Standard Arabic
Mohammad T. Alhawary - Modern Standard Arabic Grammar: A Learner′s Guide

The declension of regular Arabic singular nouns is actually pretty straightforward:
There are only 3 cases: nominative, genitive and accusative.
The endings are u/un, i/in and a/an respectively.
If the noun has an article or is a definitive noun because of other conditions (e.g. Iḍāfah, personal suffix etc.), use the ending without the "n."
Whether you have to use the ending for definitive or indefinite nouns only depends on the meaning that you want to express.


I do not know really why you speak so much surely :)
because ,to my knowledge , wiley & son's is a good publication.
however, you might be right , because getting expertise in everything might be impossible, I am not sure.
the book I was following was this one:

Massey, K. (PhD), Intermediate Arabic For Dummies, Wiley Publishing Inc.
...

I should nevertheless thank to you for referencing books in this regard.
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Doitsujin
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Re: Declensions in MSA

Postby Doitsujin » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:14 pm

jimmy wrote:[...]to my knowledge , wiley & son's is a good publication.

John Wiley & Sons, Inc. is indeed a reputable publishing company, however, that doesn't necessarily mean that all books that they publish are good and/or suitable for you.

jimmy wrote:Massey, K. (PhD), Intermediate Arabic For Dummies, Wiley Publishing Inc.
No offense, if you're still struggling with Arabic declensions, you won't learn much from an intermediate Arabic textbook. Especially one written by an author who clearly lacks the skills to present grammar topics in an easy-to-understand way.

At your current level, I highly recommend that you go through All The Arabic You Never Learned The First Time Around by James M. Price, which is available as a free .pdf download, because the publisher apparently never copyrighted it.

For example, James M. Price explains introduces cases as follows:

James M. Price wrote:Case refers to the form a noun or an adjective takes depending on its function in a sentence. For
example, a noun functioning as the subject of a sentence will have a different case than it would have if it
were the direct object. In general, different cases are indicated by changes in the voweling attached to the
ends of nouns and adjectives. In Arabic there are three cases. [...].
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Re: Declensions in MSA

Postby jimmy » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:39 pm

jimmy wrote:
jimmy wrote:Massey, K. (PhD), Intermediate Arabic For Dummies, Wiley Publishing Inc.
No offense, if you're still struggling with Arabic declensions, you won't learn much from an intermediate Arabic textbook. Especially one written by an author who clearly lacks the skills to present grammar topics in an easy-to-understand way.
At your current level, I highly recommend that you go through All The Arabic You Never Learned The First Time Around by James M. Price, which is available as a free .pdf download, because the publisher apparently never copyrighted it.



To express it more properly, I had first met with madinah arabic (Maybe you know this source). I enjoyed this website and followed up to almost end. (But very quickly)

I just had not understood the declensions in its first glance.
otherwise, I only jumped over this issue. (That does not mean that I do not know anything for latter cases (i.e. forms , times,etc.)

All in all I think it would worth to read the sources you referenced here. (But my preference : the more it contains reading texts and detailed grammar explanations , the better it is )

I think you consider my lever would be lower than B1 , but how to test it properly?
I am sure the exams here will not Show realistic results. Some websites offers such tests (and my level is based on type form)
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Re: Declensions in MSA

Postby jimmy » Sat Oct 16, 2021 8:52 pm

an interesting point:

someone may disagree to me in this regard. Also, I think it would worth to discuss this on general language discussion forum

the issue:

I heard and also sometimes imagined that visiting a country (for long time terms) would ensure better learning. A sample I heard from Turkish media confirms this.
that sample I came across in the news (on tv) was announcing that one man was taking his degree as the first one amongst all of other atttendee of our foreign exam (Arabic) here. (this man had been to a country where arabic language was official and national language) Although our exam does not test listening , speaking and writing skills, I am sure it perfectly tests reading and grammar knowledge.

What I mean here is that ,I was imagining it would better to see usages exactly (while that does not mean that grammatical contexts were worthless, here in Turkey, to see the people expertised in grammar could not construct just a pattern of optimal sentence is not an unusual. )

so, what does this mean exactly?

I was considering to give high importance just to flaw. Grammatical contexts would presumably be resolved by themself later to me.
but unfortunately I clearly saw / observed that there were a vast majority of learners for MSA and the most common paradigm was GRAMMAR STEP BY STEP.


in this case a question is arising: how was that man (mentioned above) had been successfull ?
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Re: Declensions in MSA

Postby jimmy » Sat Oct 30, 2021 10:04 am

Doitsujin wrote:At your current level, I highly recommend that you go through All The Arabic You Never Learned The First Time Around by James M. Price, which is available as a free .pdf download, because the publisher apparently never copyrighted it.


Hi,I currently follow this book you suggested but I can't find answers to exercises/questions (at last part of each chapters)

(for instance, I could not find answers for questions/excersises given in 19-20 pages (part 1 ,part 2 ,part 3)

A NOTATION: I make block Works. So ,it is potential to complete the book in short time period. Therefore,if you believe that that book was strong/efficacious then please express/indicate it in your explanation.
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Re: Declensions in MSA

Postby Doitsujin » Sat Oct 30, 2021 3:17 pm

jimmy wrote:(for instance, I could not find answers for questions/excersises given in 19-20 pages (part 1 ,part 2 ,part 3)
The answers are listed at the end of the book in chapter 8 (pp. 403-405).
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