How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

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german2k01
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby german2k01 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:11 pm

I believe you and that you are diligent/dedicated. This projection is about another year/year and a half of work though. Don't mistake this for me saying 'I know your position better than you', I'm not saying that, I just question if you are replacing the need for engagement with more preparation.


I started my exact journey 18 months ago. I was a zero beginner. Technically speaking all my reading is done with corresponding audio. 2.8 million words I have read so far I also listened to the text. The only book which is an exception that I read last month in full reading mode was "Supergute Tage order Sonderbare Welt des Christopher Boone" and not using a dictionary at all. However, I understood the gist of the book. It is meant for A2.

I imagine that you now read pretty fluently in German and that this came from reading.


See above point. Some texts are easier to read and with some texts, I still have problems with. In regards to my true reading ability, I can only say with full confidence when I read the 5 million mark.

I think that you also want to be in a position to be talking to people around you without anxiety/difficulty??


Yes. I am not in this position as of yet. It depends a lot on what kinds of questions are being asked from me and if they do require lengthy answers or one or two sentences/phrases. If a shopkeeper asks me "do you want Spice"? I can easily reply "A little bit". But when I need to deliver more information on the fly this is where I struggle.

More one-way 'safe' listening might not deliver this for you. An analogy I would make is between swimming theory vs swimming practise. You need to know what to do, what to recognise beforehand, but swimming doesn't occur until you engage with the water. Only then do you apply and adjust. Similar for riding a bicycle.


I understand where you are coming from. I am trying to apply newly acquired knowledge within my restrained capacity. For example, when a shopkeeper asks me a question, I try to answer it with a different stock phrase instead of the usual one.

I have doubts about the view that says massive listening input leads to more than recognition/understanding; that what you understand you can also reproduce and it just waits for speaking to switch on.


I was also under the same impression as yours, however, I never learned any other language under this military-style discipline and intensity where I was spending 6-8 hours every day in my TL and kept at it for the next 18 months continuously. This mass immersion approach is very unusual for me as well and the recommended period is 2 years. I spoke less as per the method, however, the quality of sentences coming out from my mouth is interesting. Having not done any "deliberate" speaking practice I can come up with advanced vocabulary where native speakers make a note of it in a conversation is an interesting case study. The same thing happened when my subconscious mind had come with a vocabulary word and used it correctly in a conversation with my doctor and being a native speaker of German he had to look it up in an online dictionary. Then he used the same word to explain his thoughts. Similarly, a banker at a local Deutsche Bank was asking survey-type questions from me and I used a word she was not expecting from a foreigner so she was surprised that I could come up with such a natural phrasing even I was so surprised by the ability of my subconscious mind.


As a result my younger brother understands to some level, but can't speak/reproduce because he has never had to. In some respect you need to 'learn on the job' where all the knowledge isn't already present waiting to be employed


My hostel is located in a retirement house where I get to sit with old ladies and men. I tried speaking from day 1 but nothing came out of my mouth absolute nothing. Also, I could not understand them either. It was all noise to my ears.

I wonder if he chooses to interact on a daily basis what will happen after being exposed to French passively? Will it be really hard for him to activate it in comparison to someone who is starting with a clean slate?
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby einzelne » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:25 pm

german2k01 wrote: I started my exact journey 18 months ago. I was a zero beginner. Technically speaking all my reading is done with corresponding audio. 2.8 million words I have read so far I also listened to the text. The only book which is an exception that I read last month in full reading mode was "Supergute Tage order Sonderbare Welt des Christopher Boone" and not using a dictionary at all. However, I understood the gist of the book. It is meant for A2.


I'm sorry but am I understanding this correctly: you've 'read' 2.8 millions words but still can only get the gist of a A2 book without any crutches? After 18 months? If so, there's clearly something wrong with your approach.
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby AllSubNoDub » Thu Oct 14, 2021 8:39 pm

german2k01 wrote:I was also under the same impression as yours, however, I never learned any other language under this military-style discipline and intensity where I was spending 6-8 hours every day in my TL and kept at it for the next 18 months continuously. This mass immersion approach is very unusual for me as well and the recommended period is 2 years.


If you spent 18 months, 6-8 hours a day studying German and you weren't left proficient by the end, then your methods were seriously flawed. Furthermore, it seems you waited far too long to question the efficacy of your methods. Given this track record, maybe you should be trusting your own judgment less and questioning your current methods more often (e.g. pure massive input)?

german2k01 wrote:I spoke less as per the method, however, the quality of sentences coming out from my mouth is interesting. Having not done any "deliberate" speaking practice I can come up with advanced vocabulary where native speakers make a note of it in a conversation is an interesting case study. The same thing happened when my subconscious mind had come with a vocabulary word and used it correctly in a conversation with my doctor and being a native speaker of German he had to look it up in an online dictionary. Then he used the same word to explain his thoughts. Similarly, a banker at a local Deutsche Bank was asking survey-type questions from me and I used a word she was not expecting from a foreigner so she was surprised that I could come up with such a natural phrasing even I was so surprised by the ability of my subconscious mind.


This is why massive reading/listening/input is so great, for the advanced stuff. Deliberate learning quickly and efficiently helps fill all the basic and immediate stuff before and around it. :)
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby german2k01 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:15 pm

I'm sorry but am I understanding this correctly: you've 'read' 2.8 millions words but still can only get the gist of a A2 book without any crutches? After 18 months? If so, there's clearly something wrong with your approach.


Sorry. I used the word "gist" casually as I was comparing it with other books which I could not understand without using a dictionary extensively. This is probably one book I can say that I understood and "officially read" it.

Speaking of "efficient" methods, how would you approach reading in your target language? After reading 2.8 million words read, what kind of reading "proficiency" do you expect on CEFR?

A side question - if you read a paragraph in English then read the same text " a few" times in your target language. Will you consider it "pure" reading the way you do usually like directly diving into it?
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby german2k01 » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:25 pm

If you spent 18 months, 6-8 hours a day studying German and you weren't left proficient by the end, then your methods were seriously flawed. Furthermore, it seems you waited far too long to question the efficacy of your methods. Given this track record, maybe you should be trusting your own judgment less and questioning your current methods more often (e.g. pure massive input)?


Maybe that's why I post queries here to get a different opinion on the subject. Let me start questioning it, so to speak. Just to give you a hint: 80% listening and 20% reading. Even if you are using the "L-R" type method it is very listening heavy.

Let's say if you were to spend 6-8 hours a day, how are you going to spend it every day? List your activities. What will be a typical day look like?

As a side question - how will you approach reading? Will you use a bilingual translation in parallel? or rather would you prefer free-flowing reading, looking up words here and there, and accepting "ambiguity" along the way?
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby einzelne » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:39 pm

german2k01 wrote:Speaking of "efficient" methods, how would you approach reading in your target language?


If I'm not mistaken we've already discussed this topic: extensive vs intensive reading.

You read expensively text which are slightly above your level without dictionary.

Intensive sessions are for close reading and expansion of your vocabulary.

I don't use L-R method (whatever it means to you), so it's hard for me to tell. Personally, I use the translation only when I work with demanding texts (poetry, philosophy, classics). In this case, I want total understanding.

I rarely reread total pargraphs, let along chapters. My experience and statistical analysis shows that it's rather ineffective time management. Once you mastered 5k most frequent words of so, all you get in your texts is a long tail of low frequency words. If you want them to store in your long term memory rereading a paragraph 3 times in a row won't help much. That's why I either underline the word and write its translation on the margin or, I make Quizlet flashcards to review later them if I happen to have a free minute (during the week and then again, after a month or so, but I don't follow any strict schedule).

My general language learning philosophy is that learning activities should mirror as much as possible real life experience. No magic applications, no secret methods. For reading, I read. For listening, I listen. It's that simple. I don't combine them, unless I'm on the A1-A2 stage when you need to get used to phonetics. In real life, you either have to read or to speak. And in real life native speakers never provide you with a translated script of their speech. Learning how to cope with ambiguity in real life situations is also part of your learning progress.

As for active skills, it's pretty much the same. For speaking, I speak (or use the retelling technique). And for writing, I write.
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Oct 14, 2021 9:56 pm

german2k01 wrote:I spoke less as per the method, however, the quality of sentences coming out from my mouth is interesting. Having not done any "deliberate" speaking practice I can come up with advanced vocabulary where native speakers make a note of it in a conversation is an interesting case study. The same thing happened when my subconscious mind had come with a vocabulary word and used it correctly in a conversation with my doctor and being a native speaker of German he had to look it up in an online dictionary. Then he used the same word to explain his thoughts. Similarly, a banker at a local Deutsche Bank was asking survey-type questions from me and I used a word she was not expecting from a foreigner so she was surprised that I could come up with such a natural phrasing even I was so surprised by the ability of my subconscious mind.

Am I to take it then you are speaking German? With the doctor, with the banker? And not just using the odd unusual word in the middle of English sentences? I'm trying to gauge how it is and thinking perhaps you are speaking German, but maybe don't think it's what it should be.

Maybe you're expecting much more from yourself? As a comparison I'll relate something that happened to me years ago. I went to a bakery looking for a sandwich, an actual two pieces of bread thing with something in-between. Which didn't seem an unreasonable request to me because you can get this in some form or other (tosti/croque monsieur or just a 'sandwich' if its on the menu). The problem is in Dutch no-one really asks for these things outside at a bakery, they buy 'broodjes' (filled with whatever). Anyway I asked for the sandwich and the woman looked at me like I was simple. As though it was an exotic request. I also understood pretty much everything she said, but couldn't formulate the best reply. How can this be if I knew what the words were and recognised them easily? If I recognise her saying "eh, do you want a 'broodje', do you want that?" Why couldn't I just say: 'what do you mean?/what's the difference?/why can't have a sandwich?' etc etc?

It's because you have to learn rules and patterns for daily discourse. And these things are really repetitive. Here's another: people here generally say: 'peper en zout?' on something rather than 'salt and pepper?' So you could be caught off-guard by the unfamiliarity and probably would be a few times. Or 'wil je een tas eromheen', literally 'do you want a bag around it?' The bag around the item, rather than the item being put into a bag. I suppose in German it's möchten Sie eine Tüte?, so not a problem. However, these are the problems people encounter and then think they don't understand or need more training to overcome. The problem is these hardly turn up in either courses or even that much in literary reading! They're annoying things you have to encounter, recognise and then copy the replies other people give to them. I enjoyed standing the queue, listening to what others said and just copying them when I got to the counter. Sometimes it went wrong because they asked me a question out of left-field. It happens, you fall down sometimes.

I've had this in previous and subsequent languages and knowing others already doesn't always help that much because each society has its peculiarities of day-to-day vernacular talk that people get used to hearing. Also you need to take part in the game to understand it. This is why I don't think hammering dry vocab and input like that is a sure-fire way. Over time you build on the ability to respond in real time and as that becomes second nature you feel confident about adding all your more sophisticated knowledge. And it can be rapid once that 'knack' is acquired. I know what the 'bump' is, it's the annoyance of not being as free and educated with the same sort of control in speech as we want to be in a new language.
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby german2k01 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:14 pm

Am I to take it then you are speaking German? With the doctor, with the banker? And not just using the odd unusual word in the middle of English sentences? I'm trying to gauge how it is and thinking perhaps you are speaking German, but maybe don't think it's what it should be.


I was not speaking English. She was asking questions in full-fledged German. I was speaking German in short phrases yes or no or maybe one broken German sentence here and there depending on the question. No way I was speaking German fluently as a native does. However, I understood her fully throughout our conversation which lasted for 30 minutes. That relates to your question regarding "engaging with water" now.

Maybe you're expecting much more from yourself?


You have pretty much nailed it down with your last reply. It is time to engage in the game and start interacting more with people.
I face communication issues when I need to explain more information in German. Since it is all passive consumption as far as language learning goes. Therefore, you feel like your brain cells are in "sleeping mode" and they need "exercise" to think on the fly. Do you understand what I mean?
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby german2k01 » Fri Oct 15, 2021 12:34 pm

My general language learning philosophy is that learning activities should mirror as much as possible real life experience. No magic applications, no secret methods. For reading, I read. For listening, I listen. It's that simple. I don't combine them, unless I'm on the A1-A2 stage when you need to get used to phonetics. In real life, you either have to read or to speak. And in real life native speakers never provide you with a translated script of their speech. Learning how to cope with ambiguity in real life situations is also part of your learning progress.


Thanks for your straight-to-the-point explanation. I think I made heavy use of DeepL for reading in German which I should not have persisted with for too long. Instead, I should have read extensively with the help of a dictionary. I am giving you an example of it below which I think you reserve for understanding really "tough" literature. I think this way of reading does not allow your "subconscious mind" to figure out the meaning on its own.



Rein formal sind die Gesetze für alle Menschen gleich. Es gibt aber ein paar Aspekte, die letztlich dazu führen, dass reiche Menschen mehr Rechte haben:

Arme Menschen und reiche Menschen verstoßen gegen unterschiedliche Paragraphen der Gesetze. Ein armer Mensch begeht einen Ladendiebstahl, ein Reicher wird bei einem Korruptionsdelikt erwischt. Es ist eine Ermessensfrage des Gesetzgebers, welche Strafen er für welche Vergehen verhängt. Tendenziell werden größere Vergehen geringer bestraft.
Reiche Menschen können sich qualifiziertere Hilfe vor Gericht leisten.
Reiche Menschen können die Freiheiten, die Rechte bieten, besser nutzen. Zum Beispiel hat jeder das Recht zu fliegen, aber wer sich einen Flug nicht leisten kann, hat von diesem Recht nichts.
Der gravierendste Unterschied ist das Recht, über das Leben anderer Menschen zu bestimmen. Ein Reicher tut das dadurch, dass er über die Verwendung seines Geldes entscheiden kann. Das Recht, über sein Geld zu verfügen, hat der Arme auch - aber es nützt ihm nichts, denn er hat ja keins


DeepL Translation:

In purely formal terms, the laws are the same for all people. However, there are a few aspects that ultimately lead to rich people having more rights:

Poor people and rich people violate different sections of the laws. A poor person commits a shoplifting offense, a rich person gets caught in a corruption offense. It is a matter of the legislature's discretion which punishments it imposes for which offenses. There is a tendency for major offenses to be punished less severely.
Rich people can afford more qualified help in court.
Rich people can make better use of the freedoms that rights provide. For example, everyone has the right to fly, but those who cannot afford to fly have none of that right.
The most serious difference is the right to control other people's lives. A rich person does this by being able to decide how to use his money. The poor also have the right to dispose of their money - but it is of no use to them, because they have none.
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Re: How long did it take you to do "Free Flow Reading" without dictionary in your TL?

Postby Lawyer&Mom » Fri Oct 15, 2021 3:41 pm

Here is the thing about speaking. You have to dive in and make mistakes. So many mistakes. A endless stream of mistakes. Not just grammatical mistakes, those are fairly easy for your listener to ignore, but “I have no idea what the right word or phrase is, but I need to communicate anyway” mistakes. But with practice, you get better at working around your own limitations. Even if your language knowledge stayed perfectly flat, which it won’t, your ability to use what you already have will go through the roof. I would recommend measuring how many conversations you can start each day. Give yourself a target and go for it.
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