Best way to learn Dead Languages?

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Cavesa
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Re: Best way to learn Dead Languages?

Postby Cavesa » Tue Oct 05, 2021 7:02 pm

einzelne wrote:
Cavesa wrote:However, a huge and scary obstacle at the intermediate level is still the grammar, which is still not that solid for many learners. It's not just about vocabulary, not at all.

Is it really? I can only speak for myself but, while moving from textbook materials to unadapted texts, grammar has never been an issue for me (my experience is limited though — I can speak only for French, German, and Italian). For instance, I 'discovered' and started to pay attention to subjoncif in French only after a year of reading. Usually, context helps: Ich bin in der Stadt vs Ich gehe in die Stadt — so long you the only thing you care is reading, understanding such sentences is not a problem, provided you know the meaning of the words 'Ich' 'gehen' and 'Stadt'. On the contrary, you can know that the subject is the plural, the verb is past perfect and the object is in Akkusativ but if you don't know the meaning of the subject, the verb, the object, this grammar knowledge is basically useless.

Usually, I start to pay attention to grammar once I barely have any new words on the page. It's because, when words recognition becomes automatic, you finally have available cognitive sources for polishing your grammar.


In Latin, yes. It was a problem, because there was clearly a need for much more practice on texts. The grammar had been covered, but not practiced enough, so some Living Latin material would be great for that.

You are going into the old useless assumption, that learning grammar=learning about grammar, which is simply not true, please don't use this straw man. The grammar needs to be learnt with its application, that's what I am talking about. It looks as if you were a bit losing the direction of the discussion here. I am not advocating for even more grammar analysis, the Latin coursebooks I know do a good job at that. But for more practice of using and understanding the grammar in context (which we seem to agree on, as something very useful), and that's why I think graded readers and Living Latin would be great for learners. As a stepping stone, that doesn't overwhelm with vocab or too complicated style.

I don't believe in the "you finally have cognitive sources" attitude. I usually pay attention to both vocab and grammar, and find it shortsighted to learn grammar secondarily. It leads to fossilized mistakes and to learning mistakes due to wrong deductions. It is less of a problem in some comprehension situations, but I find it a bad strategy, if you are after high reading comprehension of classical texts.
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Re: Best way to learn Dead Languages?

Postby einzelne » Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:10 pm

Cavesa wrote:You are going into the old useless assumption, that learning grammar=learning about grammar, which is simply not true, please don't use this straw man.


I don't. And I would be the last one to tell that grammar is useless. I just shared my own experience. That's the way I usually go about with language learning: a quick overview of grammar by using a short reference book, then some textbook, usually Assimil in the beginning, and adapted books which still use some basic grammar in comparison to real literature. Then I jump to unadapted texts. At this point, grammar is never an issue. The issue is and has always been the overwhelming size of vocabulary, idioms and so on. Really, if you have 30 new words per page, or 2-4k new words/expressions per book (as it happens with your first unadapted fiction book) then whether the verb is in present perfect or past perfect, or future in the past, or whether a particular noun (unknown to you) is feminine, masculine, or neutral is the least of your concerns.

I'm planning to perform the same trick with Latin and I expect that once I'm done with LLPSI and some 19th century readers for beginners I will face the same problem: a drastic increase of vocabulary and syntax complexity (I expect that even with Neo Latin, it would still be quite a jump). In fact, this is what happens with people when then switch to the sequel of Familia RomanaRoma Aeterna.

PS. Just checked out Indice dei Principia Philosophiae di René Descartes from the library. It states that the size of the text is 68 534 words (i.e. a size of an average novel) and there are 2996 lemmas. Really, people should start their way into Latin by using such texts (for comparsion, an average novel usually contains about 7-8 unique words).
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Re: Best way to learn Dead Languages?

Postby IronMike » Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:45 pm

einzelne wrote:Can you imagine a tenure professor in the German department who doesn't read German??? (apart from the fictional one in DeLillo's White Noise, of course).

Great reference and interesting novel. If you liked that, here's one for you: The Shakespeare Requirement.
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Re: Best way to learn Dead Languages?

Postby IronMike » Tue Oct 05, 2021 8:53 pm

I don't have much for the OP as I haven't done much or gone very far in the classical languages I've studied (Latin, Middle Egyptian, Old English, Coptic, Hittite). I've begun Old English again and if I get past unit 6 of Complete Old English then that's already better than I did during my Holiday mini-Challenge a few years ago. What I can tell you so far is that I like the audio included with the Complete Old English course.
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Re: Best way to learn Dead Languages?

Postby einzelne » Thu Oct 07, 2021 1:19 am

IronMike wrote:I don't have much for the OP as I haven't done much or gone very far in the classical languages I've studied


Actually, I think, you do have something to say. If I remember correctly, you have a very good level of Russian. You can share your experience on how learners of Russian go from basics to reading Tolstoi in the original. I think, in terms of difficulty and complexity Russian and Greek are similar: both languages have rich morphology and the system of declension would drive anyone crazy...
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IronMike
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Re: Best way to learn Dead Languages?

Postby IronMike » Fri Oct 08, 2021 12:25 am

Спасибо einzelne. That is my second favorite meme about Russian, and it just happens to hit all the parts of Russian grammar that I warn newcomers about. Not to scare them off, but to prepare them!

FWIW, this is my favorite Russian (language) meme:

Image

))
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You're not a C1 (or B1 or whatever) if you haven't tested.
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Cavesa
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Re: Best way to learn Dead Languages?

Postby Cavesa » Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:04 am

IronMike wrote:FWIW, this is my favorite Russian (language) meme:

Image

))


I used a similar meme to show my sister how illegible her handwriting was. The one that was supposedly Latin script and German. :-D
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Re: Best way to learn Dead Languages?

Postby Iversen » Sat Oct 09, 2021 11:43 am

My Latin handwriting is not too pretty either, so for Greek and the Slavic languages that use the Cyrillic I have chosen to use block letters instead - and with time you learn to write fast and with a personal touch even with those letters.

I have to be able to read printed cursive, but I don't even try to learn to read Cyrillic handwriting - the only place where I might have to be able to read that stuff would be on a market, and there I can see the goods - problem solved. And I don't have to learn handwritten cursive fraktur either (wrongly named 'Gothic') - it is only useful for historians and people who are heavily into genealogical research. But I can read the printed version of it - my mother owns several books printed in Fraktur, and I can read them almost as fast as newer books.

As for the antique writing systems - I leave thoset to the historians and laymen who actually try to learn to read those languages from the original. I just hope that that particular breed of scholars won't die out within my lifetime.
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