German: difference between superlative use with "am" and "der", please?

Ask specific questions about your target languages. Beginner questions welcome!
Cavesa
Black Belt - 4th Dan
Posts: 4960
Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 9:46 am
Languages: Czech (N), French (C2) English (C1), Italian (C1), Spanish, German (C1)
x 17566

German: difference between superlative use with "am" and "der", please?

Postby Cavesa » Thu Sep 16, 2021 11:49 am

Hi, would anyone happen to know what is the rule for using the superlative in the sentence as either am bessten or as der bessten, please?

We're just doing some exercises with my sister, and we cannot find any reliable explanation, we just sort of feel it depends on the word order or something. Some examples we've just seen (they are correct, written in the key to exercises):
Der Juli ist der wärmste von allem Monaten.
Diese Farbe ist am schönsten.
Deine Frau ist di fleißigste von allem.
Am süßesten ist aber der Zucker.

All the explanations I could find were absolutely worthless, just explaining the differences between comparative and superlative (no, we are not just idiots confusing those two), one forum mentioned there was a difference between the two ways to use superlative (with am or with the definite article) but without any explanation at all.

Anyone can either explain or point me to a good resource, please?
0 x

User avatar
Ogrim
Brown Belt
Posts: 1009
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 10:29 am
Location: Alsace, France
Languages: Norwegian (N) English (C2), French (C2), Spanish (C2), German (B2), Romansh (B2), Italian (B2), Catalan (B2), Russian (B1), Latin (B2), Dutch (B1), Croatian (A2), Arabic (on hold), Ancient Greek (learning), Romanian (on hold)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/viewtopic.php?t=873
x 4169

Re: German: difference between superlative use with "am" and "der", please?

Postby Ogrim » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:05 pm

I think it is a difference between "comparative superlative" and "absolute superlative" if that makes any sense. What I mean is that when you say "am besten" "am schönsten" you basically say that X is better or more beautiful or sweeter than anything else. It is simply "THE best/sweetest etc." and you do not mention what you are comparing with.

With article you are comparing with someone or something else and you have to make explicit what you compare to

Der Juli ist der wärmste von allem Monaten.

Although everyone knows that Juli is the name of a month, you still make explicit that it is the warmest of all the months in the year. I guess you can say "Der Juli is der wärmste", but that would be a reply to a question like "Welcher Monat is der wärmste?" so you are still comparing between months.

You can of course also say "Im Juli ist es am wärmsten". Here you are not really comparing one month to the others, just saying that it cannot get hotter than it does in July.
1 x
Ich grolle nicht

Dragon27
Blue Belt
Posts: 616
Joined: Tue Aug 25, 2015 6:40 am
Languages: Russian (N)
English - best foreign language
Polish, Spanish - passive advanced
Tatar, German, French, Greek - studying
x 1375

Re: German: difference between superlative use with "am" and "der", please?

Postby Dragon27 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:11 pm

Wiki says
Der Superlativ endet mit -st bzw. -est nach -s, -ß, -sch, -d, -t, -tz, -x oder -z und wird bei adverbialem Gebrauch der Adjektive mit am verbunden

https://de.wikipedia.org/wiki/Komparation

Another thread with some interesting explanations:
https://forum.wordreference.com/threads ... n.2704691/

Sooo, if we take a look at your examples:
Cavesa wrote:Der Juli ist der wärmste von allem Monaten.
Diese Farbe ist am schönsten.
Deine Frau ist di fleißigste von allem.
Am süßesten ist aber der Zucker.

The main issue, it seems, is what to choose when the superlative is used as a predicative. In the examples the articled form (der/die/das) is used when it's modified with "von allem", and the pure predicative is expressed with an-superlative (am=an+dem).
Another article I've bumped into provides two further examples (that seems to comply with this preliminary hypothesis):
Der prädikative Superlativ wird entweder in der deklinierten Form (mit dem bestimmten Artikel) oder in der nichtdeklinierten Form mit "am" und dem Suffix "-sten" gebraucht.

"Sie ist die hochbegabteste von allen... (F. Schiller)
Frühmorgens sei solch ein Ausflug am angenehmsten. (W. Bredel)"

http://www.deutsch-uni.com.ru/gram/adj_steig.php

In that WR thread a native speaker also described the so-called substantivized predicative form (Vorletztes Jahr Weihnachten war das Beste, was mir passieren konnte). It kind of looks like modifying the 'articled' superlative may "substantivize" it making it okay to use it as a predicative.

edit:
I looked for more examples and it seems that "am -esten" can be used with "von allen" as well. So it seems that in many cases these two constructions are freely interchangeable, as the post by Caromarlyse (directly below mine) states.
Last edited by Dragon27 on Thu Sep 16, 2021 1:43 pm, edited 5 times in total.
1 x

Caromarlyse
Green Belt
Posts: 387
Joined: Fri Dec 06, 2019 2:31 pm
Languages: English (N), French (C1-ish), German (B2/C1-ish), Russian (B1-ish), Portuguese (B1-ish), Welsh (complete beginner), Spanish (in hibernation)
(All levels estimates and given as a guide only)
x 1611

Re: German: difference between superlative use with "am" and "der", please?

Postby Caromarlyse » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:28 pm

My (old) edition of Hammer's has a section just on the superlative form am ... sten. It says it is used:

a) always for adverbs
Von allen Gästen sprach er am wenigsten. Of all the guests he spoke least.
Ich arbeite am besten nachts. I work best at night.
Helmut läuft am schnellsten. Helmut runs fastest.

b) after the verb sein
i. as an alternative to the der stärkste etc form if a noun is understood
Diese Blume ist die schönste OR am schönsten. This flower is the most beautiful.
Unter den deutschen Flüssen ist die Donau der längste OR am längsten. Of the German rivers the Danube is the longest.

ii. always if there is no noun to be understood or if something is being compared with itself (i.e. at its most)
Ein Mercedes wäre am teuersten. A Mercedes would be the dearest.
Der Garten ist am schönsten im Juni. The garden is (at its) nicest in June.
8 x


Return to “Practical Questions and Advice”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests