Irish dialects for learners.

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sfuqua
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Irish dialects for learners.

Postby sfuqua » Fri Sep 03, 2021 1:50 pm

I know we have some Irish experts here... :D

Irish has a few native speakers left, who speak a few closely related dialects.
There is also an "official" version of Irish that the government promotes through the educational system, and which everybody has to study whether they want to or not.
People who only know the official version may be confused by some of the features that native speakers use. My impression is that native speakers have no problem comprehending the "official" government sponsored dialect. My impression is that the official version is a combination of native speaker dialects, and a subset of the features of any dialect that native speakers use.

I hope I got that right. Correct me if I'm wrong. :o

Which version of Irish should a beginner learn first? To read some of the great old books (there are a few), it would be good to know the "native speaker" dialects. But there is an official (perhaps dumbed down) dialect, which is much more common in Ireland.

There are a few teaching materials for the native speaker dialects and many for the government sponsored dialect.

:-)
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sfuqua
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Re: Irish dialects for learners.

Postby sfuqua » Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:29 pm

I have opinions on this, but don't really think I am qualified to have an opinion. I've been trying to learn both at the same time, and it is slow going... :D
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荒海や佐渡によこたふ天の川

the rough sea / stretching out towards Sado / the Milky Way
Basho[1689]

Sometimes Japanese is just too much...

galaxyrocker
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Re: Irish dialects for learners.

Postby galaxyrocker » Fri Sep 03, 2021 8:42 pm

sfuqua wrote:People who only know the official version may be confused by some of the features that native speakers use. My impression is that native speakers have no problem comprehending the "official" government sponsored dialect. My impression is that the official version is a combination of native speaker dialects, and a subset of the features of any dialect that native speakers use.

I hope I got that right. Correct me if I'm wrong. :o


So this is mostly right. There are a few things to break down that cause issues though, especially about the differences in understanding. If someone truly has a good understanding of Irish, they'll understand the native dialects regardless of whether they can speak one of not. Likewise for natives understanding the standard (it's not a dialect, nobody speaks it native; it's a written standard and is actually meant to be pronounced in each person's dialect...now whether it succeeds at that is a different story). The main issue is that most learners, who claim to know the standard (what they really know is some weird frankenstein's monster-esque variant mixed by all their teachers, who also don't actually learn the standard, etc.) struggle with natives because they don't know the pronunciation. Most learner pronunciation is anglicized. Most teacher pronunciation is anglicized. You can get a full teaching degree -- hell, you can get a full degree in Modern Irish -- without ever being taught how to pronounce the language correctly. So people go in using /k/ instead of /x/ and claim it's their "dialect". Natives struggle with this, along with the half-understood grammar (remember, learners don't actually learn the true Caighdeán, they learn some weird hybrid of what their teachers think is the Caighdeán/dialects; it's a vicious circle because their teachers mostly had the same issues).

That said, in my opinion, the Caighdeán isn't really a combination of native speaker dialects as much as a random mish-mash of throwing darts at a map of Ireland to chose what feature they'll take from there -- with some features from extinct dialects that no existing dialect uses thrown in for the hell of it.

Which version of Irish should a beginner learn first? To read some of the great old books (there are a few), it would be good to know the "native speaker" dialects. But there is an official (perhaps dumbed down) dialect, which is much more common in Ireland.

There are a few teaching materials for the native speaker dialects and many for the government sponsored dialect.

:-)


Choose a native dialect and learn it. 99% of people you interact with will be natives, at least if you visit the Gaeltacht areas. Learn how they speak and what they talk like. The nice thing is, while there are many books for the standard, the best learning resources (bar one or two) are all for the dialects and can all take you very far, though they are, admittedly, a bit dry. If you learn a dialect, however, you will be able to understand all post-Caighdeán written material, as well as most pre-Caighdeán material, even if it's in another dialect (there might be a few word choices or grammatical issues), and you'll also be able to understand the native speakers. Plus they appreciate it a lot more when you sound like a native and use native idioms, even if it's from a different dialect.
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Re: Irish dialects for learners.

Postby Xenops » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:04 pm

galaxyrocker wrote:
So this is mostly right. There are a few things to break down that cause issues though, especially about the differences in understanding. If someone truly has a good understanding of Irish, they'll understand the native dialects regardless of whether they can speak one of not. Likewise for natives understanding the standard (it's not a dialect, nobody speaks it native; it's a written standard and is actually meant to be pronounced in each person's dialect...now whether it succeeds at that is a different story). The main issue is that most learners, who claim to know the standard (what they really know is some weird frankenstein's monster-esque variant mixed by all their teachers, who also don't actually learn the standard, etc.) struggle with natives because they don't know the pronunciation. Most learner pronunciation is anglicized. Most teacher pronunciation is anglicized. You can get a full teaching degree -- hell, you can get a full degree in Modern Irish -- without ever being taught how to pronounce the language correctly.


If anglicisms are not appreciated--how about japanisms?




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