Optimal Input Before Outputting

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german2k01
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Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby german2k01 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:11 pm

Hi guys,

I know the answer may vary from learner to learner. For example, Steve Kaufman , founder of LINGQ, advocated for waiting for a 6 month period listening 1 hour a day and maybe a couple of hours for reading on his language system. However, in his speaking videos with tutors, he really struggles to string together sentences fluently be it Arabic, Persian, German, etc

If we have to "quantify" this "optimal input" in terms of hours spent for listening and reading or if you have any other metric to quantify it - please state so. As a ballpark figure, when learners are supposed to be really comfortable with outputting?

Conversely, Matt vs Japan advocates for having a 6-8 hour day, every day for the first 2 years before outputting.

What are your thoughts about acquiring optimal input before outputting?

Thanks
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Re: Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby einzelne » Thu Sep 02, 2021 3:43 pm

(Captain Obvious strikes again!)

Do whatever works best for you.

Also, you'll be struggling with the foreign language for the rest of your life. (but, depending on your language level and the level of your perfectionism, you will be struggling with different things at different moments of your language journey.)

Also, you can only get really comfortable with outputting after many hours of outputting.

In terms of research, again, read FSI 10 lessons:

Despite what some published research has indicated, for example Brecht, Davidson, and Ginsberg (1993), our experience is that in-country immersion is most effective where the learner is at higher levels of proficiency.


That doesn't mean that you shouldn't practice speaking now because, again, the only way to reach a higher level of speaking proficiency is by speaking.
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Re: Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby Deinonysus » Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:05 pm

I personally observe a waiting period of 0 days of input before practicing output. Speaking ability is very important to me and I like to start practicing and drilling from the very beginning. Even for dead languages, I will do my best to research how it should be pronounced and make my best attempt to read it out loud.
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Re: Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby Gordafarin2 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 4:29 pm

A lot of the 'mass input' folks recommend a very long silent period, but it always seems very limiting to me. In addition to the examples you gave, the Refold guide introduces output only after you can nearly completely understand a new TV episode (including "every detail of the plot" and "understanding the majority of the dialogue without having to think about it"). That's such a long way before you can begin speaking your first words!

I do think it's useful to prioritize reception over production early on. As the saying goes, the lord gave us two ears (and two eyes) but only one mouth, to be used in that proportion ;) It's very disheartening to ask someone a question and not be able to understand the response they give you. So if I only have a finite amount of time per day to study, at A1-2 I'd rather spend that time on receptive skills and then let my active skills catch up later on when I can understand more. But it doesn't make sense to me to have such a hard-and-fast barrier, "NO OUTPUT UNTIL YOU REACH THIS POINT".

I get the idea of the silent period to avoid fossilizing mistakes, but I think this can also be avoided by understanding your limits. I self-talk and journal, at any level, to practice and find gaps in my vocabulary. When my level is low, I only use the structures I know 100%. I know I'm not going to be able to discuss complex subjects or hypotheticals, so I don't try until I feel much more comfortable. I practice the stuff I'm confident in, not fumbling around trying to express an idea that I'm not ready to express, which will lead to weird constructions, wild guesses, English-isms, etc.
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Re: Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby Dragon27 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:03 pm

Just to be clear about what Matt vs Japan actually thinks about early output and whether it is necessary to completely avoid it, here's a video of his tackling this topic:
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Re: Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby german2k01 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:28 pm

Really makes sense. I guess I keep devouring input in German. I need to know how certain things are expressed in a language. Just a little bit more patient I guess.
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Re: Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby german2k01 » Thu Sep 02, 2021 6:37 pm

But it doesn't make sense to me to have such a hard-and-fast barrier, "NO OUTPUT UNTIL YOU REACH THIS POINT".


I have been into my 17th month of mass immersion. Let me share with you an example that happened a couple of days ago.
I forgot to pick up my vaccination booklet during my last visit. They sent me a letter to pick it up from the center. They provided contact details. I was kind of anxious about how I would explain my situation over the phone. Anyways, I contacted the person over the phone. The first thing that I said was in German "Do you speak English?". The person said a big NO.
Then I spoke three sentences in German in total. I simply didn't know how they popped inside my head.
He understood it and explained the procedure. I also understood him verbally.
Overall, the communication took place successfully. Before that, I think my anxiety was speaking and forcing me to say "Do you speak English?" instead.
Just try your best and just see how it goes. But not in every situation I can speak appropriate sentences. It depends on the situation per se.
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Re: Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby Mr Dastardly » Thu Sep 02, 2021 8:17 pm

I'm not in a position to answer your Q directly. But, it's worth bearing in mind there is a boatload of evidence that learning strategies which involve active recall [i.e. output] are more efficient than strategies that rely on input methods alone.

I personally input more than I output, but I certainly notice that testing my output and forcing myself to engage in output drills is a far more efficient method of internalising tricky features of my TL than simply relying on (spaced) repetitive input.
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Re: Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby german2k01 » Fri Sep 03, 2021 10:33 am

I personally input more than I output, but I certainly notice that testing my output and forcing myself to engage in output drills is a far more efficient method of internalising tricky features of my TL than simply relying on (spaced) repetitive input.


I agreed with you. More time should be spent on input but when should one feel ready to output. Imagine having conversations with an italk tutor, in the beginning, it is going to be a waste of time. You will be struggling most of the time.
I tried this method to be honest with German native speakers. Nothing came out of my mouth. So I went back to the mass immersion approach. Now I have known many ways to say the same phrase for example, "Genau" now I know "Sicher doch" or " Auf jeden fall" etc

To speak fluently the way a native speaker does I wonder what kind of input I should focus on to make it happen?

One thing I can tell you from my own experience once you use a word during a conversation that word is stored in your long-term memory forever. It is like "SRS on steroids". Therefore, "outputting" has an advantage but when it should happen- that's the main question.
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Re: Optimal Input Before Outputting

Postby RyanSmallwood » Fri Sep 03, 2021 12:07 pm

Big caveat that I don't really practice output regularly, except that I've tried variations of starting languages with output only programs like Pimsleur and Michel Thomas, output and input together, and just input. I'm a big fan of input and I tend to focus on it for my goals, but don't really see any need to delay output for very long if you want to speak early and keep your input ahead of your output.

The advantages of output is it helps you focus in on details you may not notice when just listening, and as others have pointed out, outputting after hearing something forms stronger memories, especially in more social contexts. It can also be a way to find vocabulary and expressions you want to use, whereas sometimes with just input, the kind of input you get might not be the kind you need to use for conversation.

I've read a lot of advice on output that makes sense to me as an input focused learner. A lot of people suggest writing before speaking, because you have more time to compose your thoughts, and look stuff up. Vladimir Skenderoff has suggested writing in places where you can look up lots of similar native sentences, so like message boards and comments sections, you can start out reading comments native speakers are saying and try to re-word things or add your own spin, and you can google simple sentences or parts of sentences to see if native speakers use them on the internet. I know Gabriel Wyner used certain services where you write and get corrections, and then he suggests adding those correction into Anki, so you can kind of memorize correct versions of places where there are gaps in your knowledge.

I think the overall philosophy is to avoid inventing stuff where you have gaps in your knowledge, and to use output to find your gaps and learn the correct form right away. I haven't tried learning with a tutor, but if I got one, I'd probably want them to speak most of the time, and I'd just give brief replies to indicate my comprehension or ask them to repeat or explain stuff in new words, and try forming my own sentences when I felt ready and get corrections, maybe record the session and add any especially useful parts to SRS.

Again I haven't practically tested much of this beyond the beginner level, so there may be other issues you run into, but just some ideas in case anyone finds them useful.
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