L-R vs Normal Reading

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Dragon27
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby Dragon27 » Wed Sep 15, 2021 6:28 am

hasen wrote:That's a valid point, synchronising the English text with the French audio would be somewhat different to English subtitles, but I don't really see any use for either. That's also exactly why both text and audio should be in the target language because that way you can't "shut out" since otherwise you won't know what is going on.

If both the text and the audio are in the target language you certainly won't know what's going on unless you already have a decent reading comprehension of the language (in which case you still run the danger of "shutting out" the speech, because your brain can already understand the text and doesn't need to put in additional effort to decipher the spoken language). The point of Listening to L2, Reading L1 is to train yourself to understand speech in your target language: first, you read the text in your native language (or any other language you know well), so you know what you're about to hear, then you listen to the same sentence in your target language and attach the meaning to what you hear. Listening to L2, Reading L2 has a different goal - getting used to the speech flow, training yourself to parse sounds, some words, etc.

The question "Isn't L-R the same thing as watching a movie with subtitles?" has been addressed multiple times, there's even a chapter for it in "L-R the most important passages". The differences can be summarized as follows:
- watching a movie with subtitles isn't usually a learning activity. Just passively hearing your target language speech while reading text in your native language won't magically make you understand it. L-R isn't a mechanical process and it requires conscious effort and active engagement.
- you barely pay any attention to the foreign speech in movies, most of your attention is divided between the action/plot/what's going on and reading the subtitles. The core step of L-R requires you to focus primarily on speech and trying to understand it and extract language structures from it. Reading the text in L1 is only there to help you with that process, it shouldn't be your main focus (being a fast reader is helpful).
- the subtitles for each line of the movie appear on the screen at the same time as the line is spoken. In L-R you're supposed to read the text slightly ahead of the audio, so that you already know the meaning of the phrase you're about to hear.
- language density in movies is usually much lower than in audiobooks (where the speech is basically all there is, barring occasional musical interludes). L-R emphasizes much higher language exposure.

There are also some secondary points, like difference between the language and audio quality/clearness in movies and in audiobooks. Speech in movies can be hard to discern due to background noise, muffled dialogue, it can be full of slang, etc. Audiobooks are usually read by professional narrators, the audio quality is (relatively) clean, the speech is well-articulated. Books contain not only the dialogues between characters, but also lots of descriptions (of actions, of environment). It can work both ways: the language of books is rich in vocabulary and structures, the language of movies can be more natural and closer to how people actually speak; it's easier to understand the narrator of an audiobook, but you will have to train yourself to understand less clear and less accurate (but more realistic) speech in the movies as well (and the transition between audiobooks and movies can be shocking; of course, there are different kinds of movies with different types of speech, like nature documentaries, for example). The subtitles in the movies/shows/anime are often quite different from what was actually said, although same can be said about literature. The translator can take some liberties with the text, which is bad for the learner. The learner should seek out high-quality translations that closely follow the original text. The author of the method even suggests interlinear word-for-word translation for the first couple of hours. The more experienced you are with the language the less dependent you are on the quality of translation, obviously.

Going back to the original point, since L-R is primarily a learning activity, you should help yourself with little (or important) things to improve your experience. If you can't keep up with the audio narration (even after you spend enough time doing step 2 - listening to and reading in the target language - and are accustomed to the fast native speech), you can always pause in between sentences. If you have a hard time comprehending the sentence, you can rewind and listen to it again, or loop and keep listening to it multiple times. You can use parallel texts and glance at the text in the target language to clear the gaps in understanding, you can use mouse-over pop-up dictionary, etc. As long as you understand the main principles of the methd you can do what you want to adapt it to your (changing) abilities and preferences.
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby luke » Wed Sep 15, 2021 12:20 pm

Dragon27 wrote:Audiobooks are usually read by professional narrators, the audio quality is (relatively) clean, the speech is well-articulated. Books contain not only the dialogues between characters, but also lots of descriptions (of actions, of environment). It can work both ways: the language of books is rich in vocabulary and structures, the language of movies can be more natural and closer to how people actually speak; it's easier to understand the narrator of an audiobook, but you will have to train yourself to understand less clear and less accurate (but more realistic) speech in the movies as well (and the transition between audiobooks and movies can be shocking; of course, there are different kinds of movies with different types of speech, like nature documentaries, for example). The subtitles in the movies/shows/anime are often quite different from what was actually said, although same can be said about literature.

Going back to the original point, since L-R is primarily a learning activity, you should help yourself with little (or important) things to improve your experience. If you can't keep up with the audio narration (even after you spend enough time doing step 2 - listening to and reading in the target language - and are accustomed to the fast native speech), you can always pause in between sentences.

It's also more common that audioplayers can adjust the speed, so you can set audio at 90% or 80% to help you keep the listening and reading in sync. It also works on the other side where you can set the audio speed to 120% or 140% so your listening can keep up with your reading.

Youtube has the change speed feature.

Tangentially, The Word Brain talks about 3 types of speech. As I recall "daily speech" he associated with comics. Seems like one could do that with cartoons if you want video.

The Word Brain book wrote:1) el lenguaje de la ciencia, documentales y los medios de comunicación;
2) el lenguaje de la prosa;
3) el lenguaje coloquial (tiras cómicas, etc.).

More extensively in English:
The Word Brain book wrote:An appropriate strategy for adults is to read what they usually read in their native language. If you are a philosopher, read books about philosophy, if you are a scientist, read books about science. Stick to what motivates you most.

Later, you will discover that words can be divided into three great areas:
1) Language of science, documentaries, and media;
2) Language of prose;
3) Colloquial language (comic strips, etc.).

These areas certainly overlap, but only to a certain degree. So even if you understand 99 percent of the words presented in a collection of newspaper articles, this percentage will substantially drop when you start reading novels or sources that contain colloquial language.

Diversify your text sources.

Whatever source you start with – science, novels, or comic strips – you will need a good dictionary to look up new words.

L-R uses the translation in lieu of a dictionary.

It would be helpful to get people's suggestions on good L-R books/authors for #3, colloquial language.
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby lusan » Wed Sep 15, 2021 1:35 pm

wrote:..... So even if you understand 99 percent of the words presented in a collection of newspaper articles, this percentage will substantially drop when you start reading novels or sources that contain colloquial language.

Diversify your text sources.


Indeed. Novels are more difficult. I wonder if that's make them much better than articles.
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby einzelne » Wed Sep 15, 2021 2:03 pm

luke wrote:It would be helpful to get people's suggestions on good L-R books/authors for #3, colloquial language.


TV series and soap operas are actually the best but, unless you study English, it's hard to find subtitles. Comics might work (I never tried) but you cannot practice L-R with them.

As for books, cheesy popular books (with lots of dialogues and undemanding prose) can give you lots of colloquial expressions but, if you usually read Márquez, reading pulp fiction would be a painful experience.
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby sfuqua » Wed Sep 15, 2021 3:45 pm

I've never had trouble doing the listen-L2/read-L1 stage, so I usually start with that. If things fall apart, just start the section over.
I go from loving it and saying that I need to do this all the time to feeling that it is a big waste of time pretty often. Just keeping the audio and the print synced up makes sure that you are paying attention to both.
It is great for getting yourself to read some adult fiction, even when you are at a low level. L-R-ing _Cien Años de Soldad_ when I was barely at the Intermediate level transformed my Spanish comprehension. I went through the book three times.

I've always had a taste for low brow stuff too. Yesterday I did some L-R on a Spanish translation of an English supernatural romance type book that my wife likes, _Fiebre Oscura_ by Moning. It takes place in Dublin, Ireland, so it is fun to figure out what neighborhood things are happening in. It is about 1000 times simpler than García-Márquez, but it was fun, so I'm going to L-R for an hour today again, if I can tear myself away from my Tagalog teleserye. :D
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby hasen » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:16 am

rdearman wrote:
hasen wrote:That's also exactly why both text and audio should be in the target language because that way you can't "shut out" since otherwise you won't know what is going on.

But it means you also need to know every word, both audio and text. In which case you're probably a native speaker or C2 already, so why bother learning at all?


Really? If I'm watching Peppa pig with subtitles or reading the hungry caterpillar children's book I need to know every word and be at C2 level? :roll:
Last edited by hasen on Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:30 am, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby hasen » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:21 am

Dragon27 wrote:If both the text and the audio are in the target language you certainly won't know what's going on unless you already have a decent reading comprehension of the language


Like I said to rdearman, you have some to learn about finding material appropriate for your level. If you're reading an Isaac Asimov book then yes, if you're reading a children's book or watching a children's tv programme with subtitles then most certainly no...

Dragon27 wrote:The point of Listening to L2, Reading L1 is to train yourself to understand speech in your target language.


Reading it first in L1 and then listening to it with audio and text both in the target language could work. But if you're listening to two languages at once you're just confusing yourself and making an association between the target language words and your native language, rather than directly to their actual meaning.

As for audiobooks vs movies generally, well it's obvious that movies and tv shows would be better for learning to actually speak the language since they are 100% dialogue, whereas books are mainly descriptions and in the past tense. The slang you mention is also required for general speaking and understanding everyday speech. There are also ways to get around the density problem you mention. Personally I only watch the parts with dialogue the second time around.
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby Dragon27 » Thu Sep 16, 2021 8:57 am

hasen wrote:Like I said to rdearman, you have some to learn about finding material appropriate for your level.

That's what L-R was designed for - being able to listen to material that is way above your level (when unassisted) and learn from it.

hasen wrote:Reading it first in L1 and then listening to it with audio and text both in the target language could work.

Yeah, that is one of the variations (and what parallel texts are for).
The better your level, though, the less you can rely on parallel text in L2. Either way, it is not necessary (but useful) in general.
hasen wrote:But if you're listening to two languages at once you're just confusing yourself and making an association between the target language words and your native language, rather than directly to their actual meaning.

You don't listen to two languages at once, you quickly skim through the text in L1 in order to grasp the meaning (if you're able to read fast enough) and concentrate most of your attention on the listening part and attaching the meaning (you've extracted from text) to what you're hearing.

hasen wrote:As for audiobooks vs movies generally

Movies and TV shows have their benefits and are very important, no one argues about that. The difference of language between movies and books was a secondary consideration, the main points still stay the same - watching a movie with subtitles for fun and L-Ring an audiobook are very different activities. You can, of course, turn watching a movie into a learning activity with additional tools and workarounds (although the result will still be different from the typical experience of L-R as described above). But the question is usually posed in the form "people watch movies with subtitles all the time and no one learns a foreign language that way, how is L-R any different?", so the answer was a rebuttal to that:
hasen wrote:It seems to me that if you're listening to audio in your target language while reading text in your native language you're not doing anything different to when anyone watches a movie with subtitles in their own language...people generally don't learn a language when they do this.

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 53#p194853
lusan wrote:In my youth, ALL movies were English/subs. Movies centers were full of people every evening -outdoor in the Caribbean heat. Nobody learned English by watching those movies.

https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 63#p182563
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby luke » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:28 pm

Dragon27 wrote:You don't listen to two languages at once.

That's true for L-R and I agree with all of your answers, so don't take the following comment sideways :)

The author did at one point bring up parallel listening. That's not L-R, but he/she did bring it up in warm terms.

I did a few experiments with parallel listening. I think L-R is better, but haven't really put the effort into parallel listening.

One of the challenges is finding two good narrations for the same book.

Other challenges are the quality of the translation (same as with L-R), the rate the narrator talks, overlapping voices, etc.

Another challenge is that sometimes the L1 or L2 get "bigger than your working memory in seconds" time ahead or behind the other, etc. The point is to try to attach meaning to the L2 audio, but if the L2 narrator is ahead of the L1 narrator, that can be more difficult.

So overall, parallel listening is not as easy for the student to control the experience as L-R.

Creating a parallel listening audio:
What I did was a little math and Audacity. Chop off any irrelevant intros and outros in both recordings. If a chapter is in L1 is, say 8 minutes, and the same chapter in L2 is 10, figure out if you want to slow the L2 audio down by 20% or speed up the other by 25%. Then I'd save L1 as a right track and L2 as a left track so they could be used independently by adjusting the balance on your listening device.

Back to your regularly scheduled program.
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Re: L-R vs Normal Reading

Postby RyanSmallwood » Thu Sep 16, 2021 12:50 pm

hasen wrote:
Dragon27 wrote:If both the text and the audio are in the target language you certainly won't know what's going on unless you already have a decent reading comprehension of the language


Like I said to rdearman, you have some to learn about finding material appropriate for your level. If you're reading an Isaac Asimov book then yes, if you're reading a children's book or watching a children's tv programme with subtitles then most certainly no...

Dragon27 wrote:The point of Listening to L2, Reading L1 is to train yourself to understand speech in your target language.


Reading it first in L1 and then listening to it with audio and text both in the target language could work. But if you're listening to two languages at once you're just confusing yourself and making an association between the target language words and your native language, rather than directly to their actual meaning.

As for audiobooks vs movies generally, well it's obvious that movies and tv shows would be better for learning to actually speak the language since they are 100% dialogue, whereas books are mainly descriptions and in the past tense. The slang you mention is also required for general speaking and understanding everyday speech. There are also ways to get around the density problem you mention. Personally I only watch the parts with dialogue the second time around.


Of course there are other ways to learn, not sure the point of bringing them up here. Listening-Reading is just 1 activity people can use if they want to start learning from books that are above their level. Some people also are studying languages with the goal of reading as a big part of their motivation and not just to learn how to speak, and plenty of people like to discuss things they read or read more in depth on topics they like to talk about, so Listening-Reading is a good option for them.

I also don't know why you insist listening to L2 while reading L1 will confuse people, its a component of methods like Assimil that people have used for a long time and its something I've been doing for years to get into the books I like. So not sure how I'm supposed to take your guesses of what you think will happen.

You can prefer other things if it doesn't suit your goals or interests and be skeptical about other people's reports of its efficacy, but I'm not sure how far speculating about Listening-Reading without having tried it and mentioning other methods that don't substitute for what a L-R does is going to contribute to a discussion about it.
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