is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

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is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby jimmy » Sat Jul 31, 2021 1:23 pm

the book I study with it states a sentence with its translate but the sentence seems like it contains wrong conformity of subject and predicate.
that sentence is:

مُمْ كِن تَنْكَسِ رُ ذِراعُهُ.

when we look to the verb تَنْكَسِ رُ which is in passive, we see that the subject should be one of these : هِي ، انتَ .
we clearly see that the pronoun here ذِراعُهُ is "his" thus masculine.
And these are not in the conformity.
the book says that the translation would be: "His arm may be broken"
..
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Re: is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby Doitsujin » Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:17 pm

The sentence مُمْكِن تَنْكَسِرُ ذِراعُهُ is correct.
اِنْكَسَرَ /inkasara/ is a form VII verb.
(تَنْكَسِرُ /tankasiru/ is the indicative form.)

Form VII verbs are often used instead of form I passive verbs. For more information, see this excerpt from All The Arabic You Never Learned The First Time Around
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Re: is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby Deinonysus » Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:36 pm

The arm is the subject of the verb, and arm is a feminine noun. It doesn't matter whose arm it is (his arm, her arm, my arm, your arm), the verb will always have a feminine subject because it matches the noun, not the possessor.

A comparison to English would be, a sister is female. If you say "his sister", the sister is still female.
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Re: is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby jimmy » Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:37 pm

Doitsujin wrote:The sentence مُمْكِن تَنْكَسِرُ ذِراعُهُ is correct.
اِنْكَسَرَ /inkasara/ is a form VII verb.
(تَنْكَسِرُ /tankasiru/ is the indicative form.)

Form VII verbs are often used instead of form I passive verbs. For more information, see this excerpt from All The Arabic You Never Learned The First Time Around

I am feeling more than thankful to you :) (because you ensured me learn one more source)
meanwhile,I am aware about that form. You can find in this resorce and with the suitable declension of pronouns here : Intermediate Arabic FOR DUMMIES, Keith Massey,PhD ,Wiley Publishing, ISBN:978-0-470-37337-8 ,page: 157.
Last edited by jimmy on Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby jimmy » Sat Jul 31, 2021 3:39 pm

Deinonysus wrote:The arm is the subject of the verb, and arm is a feminine noun. It doesn't matter whose arm it is (his arm, her arm, my arm, your arm), the verb will always have a feminine subject because it matches the noun, not the possessor.

A comparison to English would be, a sister is female. If you say "his sister", the sister is still female.

well, buty why ذِراعُهُ and not ذِراعةه

(probably this is natural feminine or feminine by definition. I remember something like this as well, if a pattern (a part) of body is double count (like ears,legs or eyes) then this is feminine, if it is one (like nose) then it is masculine),correct?)
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Re: is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby Deinonysus » Sat Jul 31, 2021 4:45 pm

jimmy wrote:
Deinonysus wrote:The arm is the subject of the verb, and arm is a feminine noun. It doesn't matter whose arm it is (his arm, her arm, my arm, your arm), the verb will always have a feminine subject because it matches the noun, not the possessor.

A comparison to English would be, a sister is female. If you say "his sister", the sister is still female.

well, buty why ذِراعُهُ and not ذِراعةه

(probably this is natural feminine or feminine by definition. I remember something like this as well, if a pattern (a part) of body is double count (like ears) then this is feminine, if it is one (like nose) then it is masculine),correct?)

Not all feminine nouns end in a ta marbutah, you just have to memorize the gender in that case. عَين is another feminine word with no ta marbuta, and there are also some country names that are feminine but don't end in ta marbutah, such as مِصر and ليبيا. Also, ta marbutah turns into a regular ta if you inflect for possession, for example مَدينَة would become مَدينَتَهُ not مَدينَةَهُ.

I don't know anything about gender switching for singular vs dual, but I do know that for some nouns that are collective by default, there is a singular version that is feminine. For example مَوز (bananas) is masculine, but مَوزَة (banana) is feminine.

Edit: I misunderstood what you were saying. That's good to know that natural pairs tend to be feminine, it will help me in my Arabic studies! I believe there are also other feminine words that do not end in a ta marbutah, but I can't think of any examples off the top of my head other than country names.
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Re: is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby Doitsujin » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:22 pm

Deinonysus wrote:I believe there are also other feminine words that do not end in a ta marbutah, but I can't think of any examples off the top of my head other than country names.
Here are some examples often listed in grammar books:

أُمّ = mother
دار = house
رُوح = spirit (male & female)
طَرِيق = way; road (male & female)

You can find more examples in the following article:
Words that look masculine but are feminine
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Re: is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby jimmy » Sat Jul 31, 2021 5:33 pm

Deinonysus wrote:
For example مَوز (bananas) is masculine, but مَوزَة (banana) is feminine.[/strike]



Thank you very much for eplanations. As far as I know this you expressed above is incorrect. In inanimate forms The word may be just masculine or feminine (no optional case)

for instance : سيّارة is feminine and just feminine. (No masculine form is available ,because it is inanimate)

but for animals (e.g. dog)

both feminine and masculine forms are available. e.g.: كلب , كلبة
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Re: is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby Doitsujin » Sat Jul 31, 2021 6:58 pm

jimmy wrote:
Deinonysus wrote: For example مَوز (bananas) is masculine, but مَوزَة (banana) is feminine.[/strike]
Thank you very much for eplanations. As far as I know this you expressed above is incorrect. In inanimate forms The word may be just masculine or feminine (no optional case)

No, Deinonysus was right. مَوْز is a collective noun and masculine and مَوْزَة is feminine.
The same principle also applies to animate nouns. For example, حَمام = doves and حَمامة = a dove.

jimmy wrote:for instance : سيّارة is feminine and just feminine. (No masculine form is available ,because it is inanimate)

Whether a noun is animate or not doesn't matter in this case, because سيّارة follows a completely different morphological pattern.

BTW, given your limited understanding of Arabic grammar and morphology, trying hard to find faults in answers given by posters trying to help you might not be such a good idea...
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Re: is this sentence incorrectly translated?(MSA)

Postby jimmy » Sun Aug 01, 2021 3:58 am

Doitsujin wrote:
jimmy wrote:
Deinonysus wrote: For example مَوز (bananas) is masculine, but مَوزَة (banana) is feminine.[/strike]
Thank you very much for eplanations. As far as I know this you expressed above is incorrect. In inanimate forms The word may be just masculine or feminine (no optional case)

No, Deinonysus was right. مَوْز is a collective noun and masculine and مَوْزَة is feminine.
The same principle also applies to animate nouns. For example, حَمام = doves and حَمامة = a dove.

jimmy wrote:for instance : سيّارة is feminine and just feminine. (No masculine form is available ,because it is inanimate)

Whether a noun is animate or not doesn't matter in this case, because سيّارة follows a completely different morphological pattern.

BTW, given your limited understanding of Arabic grammar and morphology, trying hard to find faults in answers given by posters trying to help you might not be such a good idea...


I will always try to find the faults belonging to someone whose knowledge is better than me. :)
Also,I will not neglect to find some faults of natives (Arabs here) :)
This is the best idea I have ever seen :)

(just teasing with you :) )

I was mentioning this one: موز is masculine itself. You can write موزة when you indicate PLURAL (means more than two bananas)
but I meant you could not show one of two separate and single bananas with موز and another one with موزة
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