Pros and Cons of tutors

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s_allard
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby s_allard » Tue Jun 29, 2021 6:49 pm

As I mentioned earlier, I just signed up yesterday for a year of pre-paid tutoring with a variety of tutors for Spanish, German and eventually Russian. I don’t know who I’ll get but I’m not worried because I think I can handle any situation. Unless the tutor is deaf and mute, I don’t foresee any problems because I believe there’s always a way to work with and around the worst tutors.

I’ve been generally satisfied with nearly all the tutors I’ve had, some more than others of course. But since I have been told in no uncertain terms that this thread is about tutors and not tutees, I won’t talk about how to manage the tutoring relationship or how I work with tutors. But on a minor point, I would certainly recommend having a short free or cheap sample session to get a sense of the chemistry with the prospective tutor and to discuss various issues of concern.
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby iguanamon » Tue Jun 29, 2021 7:26 pm

s_allard wrote:...But since I have been told in no uncertain terms that this thread is about tutors and not tutees, I won’t talk about how to manage the tutoring relationship or how I work with tutors. ...

I think this is key to the tutor-learner situation. A learner must realize that they are in charge of what they want from the tutor.

Regardless of what you have been told, as a tutor and as a pupil, I think it would be helpful to the community if you would further elaborate on how you manage the tutor-learner relationship for yourself when you are the learner and, vice-versa. How do you handle the tutor-learner relationship when you are the tutor? Would you insist on following your own agenda with learners, or, as I suspect, would you help them to work on their weaknesses? Would you identify those weaknesses yourself? Or, would you work with the learner on what they believe their weaknesses to be? Or, would you do some sort of combination of your own initiative and the learner's perception of their weaknesses?

I agree with you that at an intermediate level, a tutor is more like a coach than an instructor. How do you fulfill this role with your advanced students?

For myself, I feel like I am an advanced enough learner that I can do a fairly good job of analyzing my own weaknesses, but I would certainly accept input from an experienced tutor.
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby lingua » Tue Jun 29, 2021 10:50 pm

I have had quite a few tutors via italki that I've been completely happy with. The ones that don't work for me after a session or two aren't used again. With italki I've found the teachers with training/credentials have on the whole been better than the community tutors.

It could be that my expectations are different. With Italian I'm primarily looking for conversation with someone who points out any recurring errors. And since conversation is the point for me they need to be good at that. Not everyone is.

For Portuguese, I'm looking for something completely different since I don't have enough instant recall to converse for an hour so I've mostly been doing review of what I've studied previously, clarified grammar points, improved my pronunciation and only more recently added conversation to a portion of my sessions. As I improve my ability to converse I'll want to spend more time on that.

There are no cons to having a tutor if you find one that works for you. There are good and bad tutors/teachers just as there are good/bad engineers, managers, waiters or people in any other field. I don't believe all or even most tutors are terrible though so I find it surprising that people have virtually nothing but negative experiences with them.

Also, sometimes what we would like doesn't exist. I can see why a tutor wouldn't be interested in correcting writing for example. In a past life I did technical writing and editing. Correcting other peoples writing in their native language is pretty tedious. I imagine doing it in a language they are learning would be even worse.
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby Lisa » Tue Jun 29, 2021 11:25 pm

s_allard wrote:There is a fundamental question we must all answer: do I really need a tutor? If I'm happy with my progress and results so far and I don't feel anything is missing, then I don't need a tutor, end of story and money saved. In the case of exam preparation, it's the same


Wait, what's this? I think [know] that self-assessment is worth what you pay for it :-) One purpose of a tutor/coach is to find out what you are missing and identify the weak spots, that you can't see from the inside, since you are after all still a learner. Ignorance is bliss is not a useful motto.

I do like the term coach better than tutor. I like self-learning (in many arenas, not just languages) but somewhat haphazardly, so I'll have areas of expertise and gaping holes. It makes me unfit for classes or any rigid curriculum.
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby iguanamon » Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:01 am

Thanks, Lisa
Last edited by iguanamon on Wed Jun 30, 2021 4:18 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jun 30, 2021 1:07 am

lingua wrote:Also, sometimes what we would like doesn't exist. I can see why a tutor wouldn't be interested in correcting writing for example. In a past life I did technical writing and editing. Correcting other peoples writing in their native language is pretty tedious. I imagine doing it in a language they are learning would be even worse.

But work is not about doing just what you enjoy. That's called professionalism. If a tutor isn't willing to do that, they should be at least honest about it in their profile, not wait until the first lesson is paid. And if they really want to act like unprofessional spoilt brats, they should get thrown out of any tutoring platform.

It might be less fun than just chatting, but it's extremely important. We were talking about it with a friend just a few days ago. She has a problem with writing at work in French and we totally agreed that it is near impossible to fix, because most tutors are simply too lazy to help with that, and writing classes or online courses don't really exist either.

And how comes that what we would like doesn't exist, when one fourth (in some cases one fifth) of all the language exams is about writing? And when most people still learn languages for job opportunities, therefore need writing very much?

I think this illustrates a big problem with many tutors. They don't see language teaching as a serious job, but rather as either escape from being a failure elsewhere, or as getting money for having fun. That's a big problem. It is a totally wrong attitude, that affects everything. That's why an average language teacher doesn't deserve as much respect as an average music teacher for example. You simply won't find music teachers, who would decide to not teach scales, just because they don't find it fun.

If I pay somebody, I am doing it to get the most value, not to entertain them.

edit:fixed a mistake.
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby s_allard » Wed Jun 30, 2021 3:39 am

iguanamon wrote:
s_allard wrote:...But since I have been told in no uncertain terms that this thread is about tutors and not tutees, I won’t talk about how to manage the tutoring relationship or how I work with tutors. ...

I think this is key to the tutor-learner situation. A learner must realize that they are in charge of what they want from the tutor.

Regardless of what you have been told, as a tutor and as a pupil, I think it would be helpful to the community if you would further elaborate on how you manage the tutor-learner relationship for yourself when you are the learner and, vice-versa. How do you handle the tutor-learner relationship when you are the tutor? Would you insist on following your own agenda with learners, or, as I suspect, would you help them to work on their weaknesses? Would you identify those weaknesses yourself? Or, would you work with the learner on what they believe their weaknesses to be? Or, would you do some sort of combination of your own initiative and the learner's perception of their weaknesses?
...

Somewhat against my better judgement, I'll elaborate briefly on certain aspects of the tutor/coach - tutee relationship as I experience it from both sides. Firstly, I need hardly mention that each student is unique in terms of proficiency, expectations, learning styles, personality, level of education, etc. There are a lot of variables here that must be juggled to see how we can work together.

As a tutor, I like to search out what we have in common in terms of education and interests. Since I come from an academic background I'm very comfortable with a wide range of forms of expression right up to academic paper writing and public speaking. I also have a very wide range of interests and can talk somewhat coherently about any topic under the sun or I can ask good questions. I love to learn.

Secondly, there is the problem of proficiency level relative to expectations. I find that most students overestimate their level of proficiency and make all kinds of mistakes even at advanced levels. Here I want to emphasize that my tutoring style is informed by my approach to language learning that I have detailed somewhat here in this forum. One of my strong beliefs is the importance of zero non-native mistakes. This is a cumbersome way of saying that I don't tolerate mistakes that a native would not make. I know that natives will be indulgent towards us because we are perceived as foreigners but I believe that since mistakes in our native language can be irritating and a sign of poor education, it's just as important in our target language.

Quite early in the relationship I develop an idea of the weaknesses of the student. If necessary, we have to go back to some basics. This may mean some grammar drills and exercises. What I see all the time is poor mastery of certain key areas. For example, if you don't master French verb morphology and usage of the tenses and moods, everything becomes just a mess. How do we fix this? I try a three-pronged approach. One, some formal study. This tends to be rather boring. Nobody likes to study grammar. Two, we do focused reading and listening where I highlight on the verb forms. Finally, I relentlessly correct the forms as they are spoken. This works particularly well for very difficult topics like the French subjunctive.

There's a lot more to talk about but I want to jump to my approach to being a good tutee. First of all, I'm in charge. My starting point is that I need a tutor only for things I can't do alone. So we do what I want. This doesn't not mean I know everything. Far from it. What it means is that I that I have areas of interest that I want to explore and I'm looking for help in expressing myself in a native-like manner. The areas of interest can mean all sorts of things. For example, I want to master some forms of informal conversation. This might mean learning some slang or vulgar language. Or it can mean learning some formal legal language when discussing certain topics.

Obviously, I like to be corrected in detail. What I really enjoy - but is so rare - is to have the tutor suggest better ways of saying things. This rarely happens but what I find very helpful is to carefully listen to the speech of the tutor. This is a great source of idiomatic language. I just imitate how they speak.

Unlike most of my students who show up asking what are we going to do today, I come to the session prepared. I have an article, a book chapter, a recording, a presentation or a point of grammar that I want to work on. This includes warming up by reading or listening for 10 -15 minutes before the class start. I have my notes in front of me. I usually have a list of idiomatic expressions that I intend to use during the class. I may even writing the greetings because there are some forms that I want to work on. Then I start: "Today, I want to work on.." or "I want to continue what we were working on the last time". I make a deliberate effort to use forms that I'm learning. My benchmark is to use something 12 times for it to feel natural.

From all this, you can see that I take a methodical approach that combines work on my own between classes, lots of repetition and some novelty. This also means as much interaction with tutors as the budget and time allows. Twice a week is really a minimum to develop a sense of movement and to keep things fresh in mind.
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby lingua » Wed Jun 30, 2021 5:00 am

Cavesa wrote:
lingua wrote:Also, sometimes what we would like doesn't exist. I can see why a tutor wouldn't be interested in correcting writing for example. In a past life I did technical writing and editing. Correcting other peoples writing in their native language is pretty tedious. I imagine doing it in a language they are learning would be even worse.

But work is not about doing just what you enjoy. That's called professionalism. If a tutor isn't willing to do that, they should be at least honest about it in their profile, not wait until the first lesson is paid. And if they really want to act like unprofessional spoilt brats, they should get thrown out of any tutoring platform.

I think this illustrates a big problem with many tutors. They don't see language teaching as a serious job, but rather as either escape from being a failure elsewhere, or as getting money for having fun. That's a big problem. It is a totally wrong attitude, that affects everything. That's why an average language teacher doesn't deserve as much respect as an average music teacher for example. You simply won't find music teachers, who would decide to not teach scales, just because they don't find it fun.


It seems you've missed my point. I used writing as an example but my primary point was that just because we want something doesn't mean it exists. Not just for languages but for goods and other services. I'd like to take an online Italian writing class but I've never found one so as far as I know it doesn't exist. But maybe I'm not searching in the right places.

I wouldn't consider it unprofessional if a tutor only wanted to focus on specific aspects of the language with the caveat that they shouldn't misrepresent what they have on offer. But that's a different issue. I think it's unrealistic to expect that you're going to be a good match with a tutor first time. Even when I had the three Portuguese tutors recently I was a little iffy on one and she's ended up being my favorite of the three.

My primary Italian tutor offers CEFR testing help but it costs about $10 more than the regular sessions. I've discussed with her and it would include correcting my writing. One of the other Italian tutors I used for a long time will go over my writing with me. I've had several tutors who teach language courses in real life and do italki to supplement their income. They take it seriously. Many of them genuinely enjoy tutoring so I find it rather disrespectful to suggest they are failures elsewhere in their life because they use italki.

I often wonder why my experiences with italki and teachers/professors in general are so much more positive than some of you seem to have. I've taken many classes in my life and certainly I've had a handful of teachers/professors that weren't very good but the majority have been perfectly adequate and many have been excellent.
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jun 30, 2021 11:12 am

lingua wrote:It seems you've missed my point. I used writing as an example but my primary point was that just because we want something doesn't mean it exists. Not just for languages but for goods and other services. I'd like to take an online Italian writing class but I've never found one so as far as I know it doesn't exist. But maybe I'm not searching in the right places.

But you seem to be missing my point. Writing is an integral part of language learning, it is in every exam, it is needed for jobs and normal life. A tutor not willing to really focus on it, that's like a doctor not wanting to treat a boring illness within his specialty.

It is absolutely ok that some tutors may want to specialize in one thing and others in another. But the problem is, that right now everybody claims to be awesome at everything in their profiles, but in reality vast majority of them "specialize" in the same things. Talking, very little feedback, beginners.


My primary Italian tutor offers CEFR testing help but it costs about $10 more than the regular sessions. I've discussed with her and it would include correcting my writing. One of the other Italian tutors I used for a long time will go over my writing with me. I've had several tutors who teach language courses in real life and do italki to supplement their income. They take it seriously. Many of them genuinely enjoy tutoring so I find it rather disrespectful to suggest they are failures elsewhere in their life because they use italki.

I often wonder why my experiences with italki and teachers/professors in general are so much more positive than some of you seem to have. I've taken many classes in my life and certainly I've had a handful of teachers/professors that weren't very good but the majority have been perfectly adequate and many have been excellent.


It is all about the expectations. If I wanted to just pay for chatting, I would find many tutors fitting the bill. But that's simply not worth paying for imho.

Perhaps you have lower expectations, and I don't mean it in any offensive way. But as Italki tutors start around 10 euros (many cost much more), which is double the hourly payment of a doctor in half Europe, I simply expect them to deliver awesome quality for so much money (if my native language wasn't this worthhless Czech trash, I would of course do language tutoring for a living and I'd be much better than most of them. But no, I don't have such a privilege, so I have to work much harder, and be much more important to the society to get the same money most tutors don't even deserve.).

And yes, they are mostly failures. Of have you met a single person with high IQ, who would choose a teaching degree? :-D :-D It's mostly for people, who don't get accepted to something more prestigious but just want any degree. And many even admit being faiulures. Many of the expat tutors even admit that they failed at a different career, so they took the CELTA or something like that to get an expat life. So no, it is no offense, just the reality.

If I pay someone, I want them to do the job better then I could. That's the issue. If they are just chatting and give very little useful feedback, then it's as if I was talking to myself. If they refuse to work on writing, they are not useful. And so on. If they know less about language learning and try to destroy the learning routine instead of fitting into it, they are not worth anything. If they are significantly less intelligent and it really affects the quality of cooperation, it is not worth paying them.

I see a lot of potential in tools like Speechling and hope to see more of them in the future, perhaps even in the area of writing. If you take the main initiative and decision making away from the tutor, and pick only those good at a particular task, it works really well. That's the future. I am not delusional, I know perfectly well in which areas would a good tutor help. But I just need them to really focus on just that, nothing else.
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s_allard
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Re: Pros and Cons of tutors

Postby s_allard » Wed Jun 30, 2021 12:03 pm

lingua wrote:..
I often wonder why my experiences with italki and teachers/professors in general are so much more positive than some of you seem to have. I've taken many classes in my life and certainly I've had a handful of teachers/professors that weren't very good but the majority have been perfectly adequate and many have been excellent.


I often wonder the same thing. Maybe it's a question of the glass half-full or the glass half-empty. As a tutor, I see people come and go. Some take one class and decide I'm not for them, others stay literally for years and everything in between. Some evidently didn't like me and I have to say that the feeling is usually mutual. On one memorable occasion, I offered to refund the money for all the past classes. I had one student who was always trying to prove me wrong. I learned to stop arguing and say "I don't recommend you say this but if you want to, go right ahead". That usually shut the student up.

As for how to help a student improve their writing, I don't see a big problem. I recently worked on two letters of recommendation, a research project, a proposal for a conference, some e-mails and we are now gearing up for a paper to be published in a prestigious journal. The coaching process process is very straight-forward. The student sends me a version of the document that I examine before we meet. I notice the mistakes and take notes. Then we meet online and go over the document line by line. We discuss my suggested corrections. I ask questions. We move things around. We look at word usage. I have to learn about the terminology used in the field. Now we have a revised version that the student reads out loud. Then we let the text rest for a day or two before having a last look and making any final changes.

The student is invariably very happy with the end result. But the process itself is interesting. My goal as the tutor or coach is not to rewrite the text to my satisfaction; it's really to help the student express themself in an appropriate and pleasing manner. This is also a learning experience for all the subsequent documents to be produced. For this very reason, when we are reading other texts, I often point out things that can be incorporated into the student's style. I'll say something like : "Here's a very well written introduction, look at the flow from the first sentence to the last of the paragraph." or "Here's a great idiomatic expression that you should use". And the student has of course a notebook full of sample sentences, vocabulary and usage comments.

Of course, this process requires a dose of humility. We have to accept the idea that we are imperfect. We all make mistakes. I myself have to look things up in the dictionary or in a grammar book. I will admit that I'm wrong or that I'm seeing something for the first time. What everybody likes or enjoys is constructive criticism that leads to a better end result. Who doesn't appreciate this process?
Last edited by s_allard on Wed Jun 30, 2021 8:50 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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