A language learners’ forum

gsbod wrote:Are tailors sitting cross legged just a French and German thing?

I have no idea. In Russian we would say: "сидеть по-турецки" "to sit in a Turkish way".

PS. I forgot to mention the most important point: once you switch to unadapted materials, reviewing is definitely less boring, since you review the vocabulary for books and topics you really care about. That's why I try to pass the initial and intermediate stages as quick as possible.

I am impressed with the depth of experience on this topic.

I read somewhere from a vocabulary 'pro' scholar that it takes 13 times or something like that for a word to go into deeper memory. Even though reviewing is not under question, I think noting that it won't be a one-off review, is important. As mentioned by others above, read widely on topics of interest is important, and that kind of random approach is what gets us 'exposed'.

The frequency of vocabulary to the level you are at in a language is important. There is no point in being aggressive on a word that appears in the language rarely and you will have no use for it. So to review, I believe 'use it or lose it' is the motto. In other words, when you find that new word, you must make it meaningful to yourself, and the easiest way is to write it into a few sentences that you imagine using with a real person. If you can't do that, then why bother?

Then there is the 2 sided coin. The vocabulary you'd only ever need to recognize and not need to produce. I have come to my own conclusion that 10,000 words is the magic number to get to expert levels. We don't use much from the 60,000 other words ever and those come from having a degree in a field other expert users of the language will also need a dictionary for. The point is, note down frequency data so that you don't waste time on some vocabulary.

Translation is also debated in the research. I believe you should once you are past the beginner stage, try to not translate the meanings at all. You want your brain to start thinking in that language. And when you have your first dream in that language then you know you are there.

So I went off-topic slightly since I didn't focus on the 'engaging' part so much.

As a teacher, at the end of the day, I had all my students make one flashcard of a new vocabulary item they wanted to remember for that day. NOT MY CHOICE. Then in their groups, they would explain the meaning of a word they pulled out of the box, and see who could guess the word. Who said the word, gets the card. At the end, tally up to find the winner. Games are fun for the social types... The lazier students or those that missed classes where the vocabulary appeared, would slowly get more withdrawn. But it rewards those that attend.

I do bidirectional translation with mini-texts, mostly from Tripadvisor - linear, visual, emotional, semi-colloquial ... an example: https://www.tripadvisor.es/ShowUserRevi ... Rioja.html
I also memorise them - it may take a week or two to know them a hundred per cent. The task looks insurmountable at the beginning, but it is this kind of food the brain needs to perform. After two, three days I begin forgetting small bits.
It takes me about 10/20 minutes in the morning to refresh old texts that I will ruminate in my head during the day, while exercising or going for a walk etc.

I also do consecutive translation with them - reverse translating from German into Spanish orally- which kind of emulates conversational prompts.

I also divide up the texts into chunks, and roll them out guessing the next one etc
I am sure thus I "deep-learn" and a lot of the learnt stays in my long-term memory.

But of course this is not enough to become productive in the language, the meanings have to be further "calibrated" through new and diverse input: i watch a lot of Spanish TV.

Hi Kraut.

I probably wasn't that clear on my opinions about translation. Firstly, anything that you enjoy doing with the language or languages you are learning is beneficial. What I had in mind is a picture of students with lists.

On one side of the page is the language they want to learn and on the other side everything written in L1 (language 1). There are a few problems with this method. Firstly, most other people cannot verify the accuracy of the translations. (unless they are experts in both languages of course) But the main thing is your brain is translating and not looking for ways to deal with the language you are trying to learn in efficient ways or in ways that are using the language. I believe the goal is to think in the language.

For example,


1. Dog ------------------- hond

or

2. A dog is a pet that people walk in the park or protects the house.

In the second example, you have used the language you are trying to learn. You can also share that with others who don't speak your L1.

I do however believe translation has its place. It's a job in itself. By the way, I find your choice of texts very unique. I am taking a wild guess that you are dreamimg of taking a holiday in Spain. Sounds lovely to me.

Sorry EGP, my text was not meant as an answer to you mentioning translation. Translation used with beginners is certainly controversial, but bidirectional translation/working with parallel text is probably - also here in the forum - the most popular method with experienced learners.

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https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=8VXmDiBfzwA
Foreign Language Study Sequences #7: Reverse Translation
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https://www.lucalampariello.com/use-tra ... -language/
How to use translation to learn a language
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https://www.espanolautomatico.com/podcast/223
8 Maneras de mejorar tu español con Google traductor
They suggest Google Translator here, DeepL would be better

Kraut wrote:https://www.espanolautomatico.com/podcast/223
8 Maneras de mejorar tu español con Google traductor
They suggest Google Translator here, DeepL would be better

But does DeepL do voice? Or am I missing something?

MorkTheFiddle wrote:

Kraut wrote:https://www.espanolautomatico.com/podcast/223
8 Maneras de mejorar tu español con Google traductor
They suggest Google Translator here, DeepL would be better

But does DeepL do voice? Or am I missing something?

I just checked in Edge browser, there it works fine (reading out the text) and the voices seem to be the same as in Google Translate. However, it doesn't show the microphone symbol - so no recording.