What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

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coldrainwater
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby coldrainwater » Sat Mar 20, 2021 3:05 am

rdearman wrote:I'm not new to this language learning game. I consider myself intermediate level, not bad but not great in French & Italian.
What was the single most important thing that helped you get from intermediate to advanced?
As a disclaimer, I have only achieved an advanced level in reading, listening and vocab (both active and passive) in one language (ES), so my comments do not apply to general output. Given that, I would:

Code: Select all

select top (1) language as [target]
from dbo.llorg
where current_level = 'intermediate'
order by personal_desire desc

Then: actively seek and consume almost exclusively harder materials in your chosen study area using a mix of intensive and extensive work to fill out an awesome and rewarding language routine. I would find one of my strongest areas (reading/vocab for example) and push them to the point where there wasn't really anywhere to push that wasn't off a cliff of insanity. Often, I like to make my strong points really strong, even to the point that they can drag weaker areas up to advanced at the appropriate moment (keep in mind that you are headed to advanced in all areas, but that doesn't mean they all have to reach that point at once). The administrative time spent deciding what to read or listen to next is where you lock in the gains from the resource you plan to consume. How well you do making that choice puts a limit on what you take from it in terms of language acquisition.

To facilitate challenge, I would fill intensive hours first hierarchically. For example, if a candidate text resource was too easy for intensive reading, I checked to see whether it would be challenging enough to fit in the next most extensive bucket as an audiobook. In practice, many contemporary or 20th-century literary works fell into this category and I am fairly certain I listened to at least 100 such audiobooks in a reasonable stretch (3-6 months iirc) and was able to reach a level of [advanced in audiobook listening if such a thing existed]. It is just my opinion, but I doubt I could have replaced those audiobooks with either [TV or Podcasts] and came out with the same skill set (rather, all three in combination did it for me). In short, audiobook listening was requisite for what I wanted to achieve and how I wanted my advanced level to be expressed in terms of practical ability.

I consider high awareness and perhaps even a conscious pause and reflect around choosing that next most difficult resource combined with active prioritization of language studies over and above other life areas (temporary state but consider it a project and note that an overabundance of divided attention spent on unrelated projects would likely be a hindrance) is part and parcel to the matter.

From my perspective, seeking novelty and variety with discernment falls directly under the same umbrella and helps make sure I have coverage sufficient for an advanced level. Why not mention easier material at all? Because you can later mop that up almost as an afterthought and with much less effort (though you may need to devote quite a few hours). I will mention a listening example simply because it is an area Rick mentioned wanting to improve for French or Italian. In addition to audiobooks (and some tv), I found the most difficult material I could that was available in podcast format and in unlimited quantity (from ivoox, the motherload for ES podcast material). For me, that ended up being a mix of worlds but heavily focused on rapid-fire peninsular Spanish. I listened in 50-100 hour chunks and never went anywhere without my headphones until the speech became clear, idiolect by idiolect. That could have easily totalled 1000-1500 hours of podcasts alone. While it was extensive listening, the material was hard and I could and did grow into understanding it quite well, given that I had an overall language program that involves some output, lots of reading/audiobooks/direct vocab study and a modicum of grammar (plus other stuff I have now forgotten). When I chose material from other countries or regions, I still picked the hardest material I could find within reason.
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby munyag » Tue Jul 19, 2022 3:35 pm

rdearman wrote:I'm not new to this language learning game. I consider myself intermediate level, not bad but not great in French & Italian. But I want to canvas your opinion, as the title says;

What one thing could help me the most to improve? Or go into the advanced level.

  • reading
  • writing
  • listening
  • speaking

What one thing should I concentrate on? Spend all day listening to podcasts? Constant reading to beef up vocabulary? More language exchanges?

What was the single most important thing that helped you get from intermediate to advanced? Something not on my list? Was it anki decks for 10 hours a day? Or dancing in the moonlight naked with an incense stick? (That didn't work for me, but maybe it did for you). Was it reading 73 consecutive grammar books while standing on your head? Did you move to the country and find a lover? (I asked my wife if I could do this, but she said no.)

In all seriousness though, I'm not asking for a silver bullet. I just want to know what would be the one thing you'd focus the majority of your time on. I realize you need multiple attack vectors.


Hi Richard

1- I realise perhaps you need a change of study plan perhaps? I like how Iguanamon used the series in Portuguese to go from Intermediate to Advanced. Could you possibly do the same with your tutors and find perhaps Buffy or Engrenages and you could "work the series" practicing your writing (vocab and grammar) as an example. You could do this with your podcasts and any speech that you find challenging in the week and then discuss that with your tutor at the weekend

2-Could you do a Home Stay in either France or Italy even for two weeks? This way you will be forced to use French or Italian in an immersion situation and possibly enroll at a language school where you could refine your grammar and vocab (your understanding of the Subjunctive for example). In the evenings you could discuss an article or the news with your host family or even watch an episode of a local show there and dissect it and take it apart. Any words that you struggle with you can dump them in Anki and DRS away.

3-You could take a distance/correspondence course in French or Italian (or do a degree-Ideally one where you need to submit written assessments and perhaps you catch up with your academic supervisor over Skype every two weeks or so

*****These are the only things I can think of at the top of my head. Hopefully they might be useful but if not I'm sure other can come up with better suggestions.

All the best
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby Odair » Wed Jul 20, 2022 2:48 pm

Although reading feels more effective as a learning tool, listening is the one thing I would not possible do without, other than perhaps if I were to learn a dead language that I do not care how I sound.
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby eido » Wed Jul 20, 2022 4:05 pm

rdearman wrote:...although I don't really do any form of written output. Perhaps I should do more of that.

I love written output to practice my skills before going "out into the wild". It could be because I'm an introvert, or just because of nerves, or maybe a bit of both--but it's something I've always stuck with ever since I started learning languages for real in high school.

With written stuff, you can look up words you don't know and explore collocations and grammar points; it also gets you thinking in the language and developing that inner voice. Because I've studied so many languages and attempted to get them to a high level, I have many inner voices.

I imagine yours are humorous French- and Italian-speaking dudes :lol: Mine right now is a shy Latina. I hope to help her become confident ;)

Dry runs are always helpful, in my opinion. They help us get comfortable with the new and become masters of the old.

Keep going, @rdearman! You can do it!
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby leosmith » Fri Jul 22, 2022 2:51 am

rdearman wrote:What one thing should I concentrate on?

What are your goals/priorities?
What's your level?
What have you done up to this point and how has it worked?
What language?
How much time do you have?
Is your motivation strong?
Any limitations on resources?
Are you set in your ways - do you have any preferred learning methods (other than spinning disks)?
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby rdearman » Fri Jul 22, 2022 3:52 pm

leosmith wrote:
rdearman wrote:What one thing should I concentrate on?

What are your goals/priorities?
What's your level?
What have you done up to this point and how has it worked?
What language?
How much time do you have?
Is your motivation strong?
Any limitations on resources?
Are you set in your ways - do you have any preferred learning methods (other than spinning disks)?

I will try to answer all of these. Response in Red.

  • What are your goals/priorities?
    Live long and prosper.
  • What's your level?
    French - B2/C1 ish?
    Italian - B2/C1 ish?
    Korean - A0/A1
    Mandarin - A0/A1
    Setswana - (The CEFL doesn't allow negative numbers)
    Czech - Gave up
    Finnish - Gave up
    English - It has taken a few decades, but I'm pretty good at it now.
    C/C++ - C2
    Assembler - B2
    Perl - C1
    Python - B1
    Rust - C1
  • What have you done up to this point and how has it worked?
    Yeah, yeah, ah, yeah
    I live my life like there's no tomorrow
    And all I've got, I had to steal
    Least I don't need to beg or borrow
    Yes, I'm livin' at a pace that kills
  • What language?
    See Above
  • How much time do you have?
    We do not know, brethren, when our death will come. None of us knows the time or the day of separation.
  • Is your motivation strong?
    The force is strong with this one
  • Any limitations on resources?
    To fulfill a dream, to be allowed to sweat over lonely labor, to be given a chance to create, is the meat and potatoes of life. The money is the gravy - Bette Davis.
    I don't have a lot of gravy. -rdearman
  • Are you set in your ways - do you have any preferred learning methods (other than spinning disks)?
    The measure of intelligence is the ability to change.” ― Albert Einstein

OK, so from my responses you can tell I like Van Halen, and Albert Einstein. I've tried all kinds of stuff. But my point in the original post was to try to get people to tell me what was the one key thing they focus the majority of their time on in order to see the most results. For example, right now with Korean I'm getting a paid tutor, and he is focusing on grammar, more so than I did when learning French and Italian. For those two languages, I most just consumed a ton of content and did a huge amount of language exchanges. I don't think I ever completed one textbook for FR or IT and I certainly never read a grammar book.

There are some things I know don't work:
  • Spinning Wheels
  • Dancing naked in the moonlight with an incense stick chanting "Français".
  • Sleeping with your head on a grammar book.
  • Keep spaghetti in your shoes for three weeks to "feel more Italian"
  • Eat only the Red M&Ms because they are considered "Brain Food"

Anyway, sensible (or funny) suggestions more than welcome.
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby german2k01 » Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:18 pm

I am currently attending a German language school. One thing I have observed is that they tackle one grammar concept per day. Present tense or Past tense, Perfect tense, etc. However, they try to master or reinforce it through deep learning. I mean they almost spend 3 hours on it.

How do they divide those three hours? They have designed a separate exercise book that explains a particular concept and contains different forms of drills. Also, they go through a short reading text where students identify that particular grammar structure/grammar concept in the reading text. It is like looking out for it in the wild but teachers have made it easy for students by providing a short reading text.
If you are learning about grammar in your target language from a paid tutor, you should start reading graded readers and start looking out for these grammar structure patterns. You can also tell your tutor to print a short text in Korean where he or she can color highlight them for you while teaching that particular grammar concept in that particular class. Therefore, you can do deep learning with it.

Studying one grammar concept per day and combining it with deep learning is a refreshing change from typical grammar-heavy based classes. However, you need to combine it with a reading activity in order for it to cement in your long term memory.
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby jimmy » Fri Jul 22, 2022 5:48 pm

haha ha ha ha ha :) :) :) :) :) just laughing when I look rdearman's last post here. Especially the last part ridiculous.
I almost totally support (but last part already clear that those beliefs were fallacy :) :) :) :)

seriously are there believers to those things these days ??
I quote here:
There are some things I know don't work:
Spinning Wheels
Dancing naked in the moonlight with an incense stick chanting "Français".
Sleeping with your head on a grammar book.
Keep spaghetti in your shoes for three weeks to "feel more Italian"
Eat only the Red M&Ms because they are considered "Brain Food"


hahah ha ha
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby badger » Fri Jul 22, 2022 6:33 pm

rdearman wrote:Perl - C1

is this the one language where productive skills are easier than receptive?
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Re: What ONE thing could help me learn the most.

Postby leosmith » Fri Jul 22, 2022 8:24 pm

rdearman wrote:my point in the original post was to try to get people to tell me what was the one key thing they focus the majority of their time on in order to see the most results

Ok, I guess I just focused on the "help me" part. My point was that it depends. If I narrow it down to myself, that greatly simplifies it, but it still depends on the language and what my level is.
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