Confusion about Comprehensible Input

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Montmorency2020
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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby Montmorency2020 » Mon Nov 02, 2020 1:31 am

Cainntear wrote:I use soaps a fair bit. I'm not massively interested in them, but they are still compelling in the sense that they're constantly setting up little traps to capture your attention -- you're waiting for something to be resolved. But I generally don't care if I don't get every detail, because they're lightweight trash. It also lets my brain wander a bit if I hear an interesting turn of phrase.


Yes, soaps can be addictive. You speak Welsh, so are probably aware of "Pobol y Cwm". It used to be every week day, then I think dropped to 4 days per week, but I found it a strain to keep up with.

I prefer "Rownd a Rownd", which is only twice a week (and happens to be in my preferred variety of Welsh, i.e. northern). I told myself at the beginning, that I was only watching it for the language, and would have no interest in the story....but you get sucked in. I now have twice weekly detailed email exchanges with a fellow watcher and learner about the storyline (never mind the language details...). Even though we both know it's a bit trashy, we are hooked... :-) (But it's a lot more cheerful than "Pobol y Cwm"...).
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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby Iversen » Mon Nov 02, 2020 12:46 pm

Cainntear wrote:When we describe a book as being "compelling", we're not talking about one that you are forced to read, but rather one that is so good that it itself forces you to keep reading. To me, "enticing" sounds like it tempts you to start reading, but doesn't say anything about whether it keeps you reading or not.


I take your point, but I seem to be totally immune to the tricks the soap providers use so you would have to use force to make me watch their abhorrent products - even if those series were the last thing available in a target language. The painting below represents a family watching Dollars (or maybe it was Dallas). That series was popular with just about anybody else a million years ago...

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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby Cainntear » Tue Nov 03, 2020 10:20 am

Montmorency2020 wrote:Yes, soaps can be addictive. You speak Welsh, so are probably aware of "Pobol y Cwm". It used to be every week day, then I think dropped to 4 days per week, but I found it a strain to keep up with.

They stopped having a Friday night episode to show sports programmes instead, but they doubled up the Thursday episode so they were still showing the same amount every week.

However, it did lead to the original concept going out the window. I had ended up liking the weird daily format, where what you were watching was a specific day of the week, and everything that happened at the weekend was just referred to by people... it seemed more real. Once they went to a 4 day week, that quickly dissolved and now you've got days continuing across episodes and you've got no idea what day it is.

I prefer "Rownd a Rownd", which is only twice a week (and happens to be in my preferred variety of Welsh, i.e. northern).

Pobol y Cwm switched to two days a week when COVID stopped TV production across the country. They managed to ration out their remaining episodes until after Easter. Since it came back on, it's only been two days a week, and I doubt they'll ever get it back to what it was before. They've been trimming back the budget for ages (the pub set has been shrunk to half its old size and the number of cast members in a given episode reduced dramatically) and they were even making a case for cancellation not too long ago.
I reckon that's the "daily soap" format well and truly gone now.
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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby sporedandroid » Wed Nov 04, 2020 3:35 pm

Montmorency2020 wrote:
samfrances wrote:That interlinear text idea is an interesting one. Half of me thinks "what a great idea" and the other half thinks "would that end up like watching an L2 film with L1 subtitles - i.e. you just end up reading the L1 subtitles".


I think that is a danger. But actually it's more of a danger with parallel texts (in my experience). Although I still like the idea of parallel texts in principle.

Parallel texts are a nightmare in Hebrew. Hebrew is not only right to left, it’s also far more concise than English. The Hebrew text will end up looking several paragraphs shorter.
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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby Kraut » Sun Nov 08, 2020 8:16 pm

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VYfpL6lcjE

Talking With Stephen Krashen: How Do We Acquire Language?
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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby samfrances » Tue Nov 10, 2020 9:39 am

Kraut wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VYfpL6lcjE

Talking With Stephen Krashen: How Do We Acquire Language?


Really interesting video.

I don't know though... I find it difficult to believe that my Spanish would continue improving indefinitely if I concentrated 100% on comprehensible input. I haven't been able to find a good, balanced summary or book summarising the research. I'd like to test the hypothesis, but maybe with a language that I wouldn't mind failing to learn - Spanish is too important to me.
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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby Saim » Sun Nov 22, 2020 9:06 am

Kraut wrote:https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=_VYfpL6lcjE

Talking With Stephen Krashen: How Do We Acquire Language?


It's a shame Matt didn't push back more on some of the issues of contention with Krashen. I understand he admires Krashen but his actual methods are extremely far from Krashenite theory and practice (the latter I'd say is just TPRS for beginners and extensive reading later, since these are the only practices Krashen has endorsed so far). Matt vs Japan recommends more explicit vocabulary study than almost anyone else, but all the comments to the video are about how great and perfect the input hypothesis is. Krashen is categorically against explicit vocabulary study, and even looking up words while reading.

In fact I'd say Matt puts more emphasis on explicit vocabulary memorisation than the evil language schools and publishing industry Krashen attacks. He's even further from Krashenite dogmatism than Steve Kauffman is ("to be able to speak well, you have to speak a lot", says Steve in almost every one of his videos about input; Krashen doesn't agree), who at least doesn't believe in using flashcards.

Krashen's theory regarding accents also contradicts Matt's interpretations of his own experience and his observations of other advanced Japanese speakers. If you can't reliably perceive the phonemic nature of pitch in Japanese, you're not going to acquire it. In other videos Matt argues that Japanese learners can end up acquiring all of the pitch accent patterns from listening, but almost never acquire the actual system since they seem to apply these patterns randomly (pronouncing the same word with varying pitch in the same handful of sentences, but always using legal patterns). The problem here is that they haven't picked up on how these patterns are an element of the lexicon and not just intonation. He suggests that focusing on learning to perceive phonemic pitch accurately helps you learn to self-correct (which is my experience in Serbian, too); this is AFAIK much closer to mainstream views on how to go about accent acquisition (i.e. that phonetic consciousness is important) than it is to Krashen's view that the only impediments to acquiring native-like accents are psychological (given "enough" input, whatever that means), and that we have "the perfect accent inside of us", the sort of assertion worthy of a self-help guru.

sporedandroid wrote:Parallel texts are a nightmare in Hebrew. Hebrew is not only right to left, it’s also far more concise than English. The Hebrew text will end up looking several paragraphs shorter.


Personally I make "parallel paragraphs", only plopping sections of articles into Google Translate. But I use this as a study aid, not really as a form of assisted extensive reading.
Last edited by Saim on Thu May 06, 2021 2:26 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Cainntear
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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby Cainntear » Mon Nov 30, 2020 9:59 am

WanSko wrote:I prefer the word 'enticing' to 'compelling'. Nobody compels me to read about the evolution of turtles, but I do it for fun. And if I can do so in a target language then it has an additional purpose and the risk that I get bored is minimized

If a book is described as "a compelling read", it is not because your high-school English teacher forced you to read it so that you could write an exam essay.
A "compelling read", aka a "page-turner", is a book that in and of itself makes you want to keep reading. What one person finds compelling may not be the same as what another person finds compelling.

The fact that you find it fun is what makes it intrinsically compelling to you.
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MrPenguin
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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby MrPenguin » Mon Nov 30, 2020 5:42 pm

WanSko wrote:I prefer the word 'enticing' to 'compelling'. Nobody compels me to read about the evolution of turtles, but I do it for fun. And if I can do so in a target language then it has an additional purpose and the risk that I get bored is minimized

Straight from the horse's mouth (or rather, from the dictionary):
compelling
adjective

very exciting and interesting and making you want to watch or listen:

I found the whole film very compelling.
a compelling story
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Re: Confusion about Comprehensible Input

Postby Saim » Mon Nov 30, 2020 6:47 pm

So we’re not going to talk about the fact WanSko plagiarised their post from Iversen? :)
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