Hi
I was listening recently to Radio Ambulante, a podcast aimed at native Spanish speakers, but which comes with a transcript and translation to English. I was thinking, besides listening to the podcast, how can I make good use of this fantastic resource?
One way, would be to make flash cards in anki. For example:
Front: Es un momento difícil para la industria.
Back: It’s a difficult time for the industry.
Front: It’s a difficult time for the industry.
Back: Es un momento difícil para la industria.
Front: [Sound clip]
Back: Es un momento difícil para la industria.
However, I tend to try not to use translation on my flashcards, having picked up from somewhere the idea that it was a bad idea to "learn" translations. Nevertheless, it would be the easiest way to make use of the materials.
An alternative would be to do flashcards with spanish definitions of any difficult words, using a monolingual dictionary. But its not always possible to convey the sense of the whole sentence this way.
What do you think? Are translational cards of the sort I was proposing a bad idea?
Translation in language learning
- samfrances
- Orange Belt
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:41 pm
- Location: United Kingdom
- Languages: Native: British English
Learning: Spanish (B1/B2) - Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2967
- x 311
Translation in language learning
0 x
: : Schaum's grammar, Fluent Forever
: : Learn / make flashcards for 1000 most frequent Spanish words
Sam's Spanish Log
Sam's Year of Reading Only Spanish
Dipping my toe into Latin
: : Learn / make flashcards for 1000 most frequent Spanish words
Sam's Spanish Log
Sam's Year of Reading Only Spanish
Dipping my toe into Latin
-
- Black Belt - 3rd Dan
- Posts: 3527
- Joined: Thu Jul 30, 2015 11:04 am
- Location: Scotland
- Languages: English(N)
Advanced: French,Spanish, Scottish Gaelic
Intermediate: Italian, Catalan, Corsican
Basic: Welsh
Dabbling: Polish, Russian etc - x 8794
- Contact:
Re: Translation in language learning
Generations of language learners have successfully used translation as a language learning strategy. Arguments against it are ideological, and say why it shouldn't work, but given that there's ample evidence that it does work, should is worthless.
I personally see translation into a language as more useful than translation out of it. When you read in a foreign language, it's easy for your brain to take shortcuts. A learner of English doesn't have to pay attention to the "s" in "he likes it", because "he like it" encodes all the information necessary to understand the intended meaning. As a result, if and when your brain makes a mistake, you won't even be aware of it -- you completed the set task successfully, so you believe you did the right thing.
However, if you have to compose the target language sentence from the prompt, you will necessarily be aware of every part of the target language sentence, and you will therefore be forced to notice your specific errors when reviewing the expected answer.
I personally see translation into a language as more useful than translation out of it. When you read in a foreign language, it's easy for your brain to take shortcuts. A learner of English doesn't have to pay attention to the "s" in "he likes it", because "he like it" encodes all the information necessary to understand the intended meaning. As a result, if and when your brain makes a mistake, you won't even be aware of it -- you completed the set task successfully, so you believe you did the right thing.
However, if you have to compose the target language sentence from the prompt, you will necessarily be aware of every part of the target language sentence, and you will therefore be forced to notice your specific errors when reviewing the expected answer.
9 x
- Gordafarin2
- Orange Belt
- Posts: 161
- Joined: Wed Aug 22, 2018 10:53 am
- Languages: English (N)
Current focus: Mandarin (A2), Italian (A2)
Maintaining: Persian (B2), Esperanto (B2), Spanish (rusty B1-2)
Dabbled: ASL, French - Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=17156
- x 557
- Contact:
Re: Translation in language learning
There's an ongoing thread where we are discussing the pros & cons of translation - the short answer is, it's more nuanced than just never, or always, using translations.
My preferred way, if I was making the cards manually, would be to only check the English when I have trouble understanding a sentence, if I really can't puzzle it out with my current knowledge. So your example, "Es un momento difícil para la industria", if I already knew all the words in that sentence, it's easy to figure out. But then I come across an idiom or a structure that's not transparent enough - randomly browsing a transcript, I found "Por si acaso, esa es Rosi." In that case, I can look at the English to check the meaning, and put it on the card, and now I know that 'por si acaso' is 'just in case'.
And if you are adding everything in bulk, and it's easier to add all the English translations at once, that's not a problem. Just because the English is on the card doesn't mean you have to pay attention to it, unless you need to. I have loads of cards that I've bulk-imported from subtitles, where even the simplest cards come with a translation. I listen to or read the front, and if I've understood it without the help of the English, I don't even need to look at the translation.
My preferred way, if I was making the cards manually, would be to only check the English when I have trouble understanding a sentence, if I really can't puzzle it out with my current knowledge. So your example, "Es un momento difícil para la industria", if I already knew all the words in that sentence, it's easy to figure out. But then I come across an idiom or a structure that's not transparent enough - randomly browsing a transcript, I found "Por si acaso, esa es Rosi." In that case, I can look at the English to check the meaning, and put it on the card, and now I know that 'por si acaso' is 'just in case'.
And if you are adding everything in bulk, and it's easier to add all the English translations at once, that's not a problem. Just because the English is on the card doesn't mean you have to pay attention to it, unless you need to. I have loads of cards that I've bulk-imported from subtitles, where even the simplest cards come with a translation. I listen to or read the front, and if I've understood it without the help of the English, I don't even need to look at the translation.
2 x
Persian... 10 novels:
Mandarin...
4000 words: / 2000 characters:
she/her
Mandarin...
4000 words: / 2000 characters:
she/her
- Iversen
- Black Belt - 4th Dan
- Posts: 4782
- Joined: Sun Jul 19, 2015 7:36 pm
- Location: Denmark
- Languages: Monolingual travels in Danish, English, German, Dutch, Swedish, French, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, Italian, Romanian and (part time) Esperanto
Ahem, not yet: Norwegian, Afrikaans, Platt, Scots, Russian, Serbian, Bulgarian, Albanian, Greek, Latin, Irish, Indonesian and a few more... - Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=1027
- x 15023
Re: Translation in language learning
I would only chip in with one single thing, namely that you shouldn't copy whole sentences. Cut out the important part which you want to remember forever and find the part of the translation that corresponds to that passage. Quoting whole sentences not only leads your attention away from the important thing, but you also waste an opportunity to take a closer look at the correspondence between the original word or idiom and the thing that would be used instead of it in your own language.
For the same reason I find it quite irritating that some grammars quote long passages from more or less famous authors to illustrate some grammatical point. This practice takes away your attention from the really relevant information. Cut it down, dear grammar authors...
For the same reason I find it quite irritating that some grammars quote long passages from more or less famous authors to illustrate some grammatical point. This practice takes away your attention from the really relevant information. Cut it down, dear grammar authors...
4 x
-
- White Belt
- Posts: 19
- Joined: Fri Jul 22, 2016 10:57 pm
- Languages: Arabic (N), English (C1-C2), Japanese (beginner)
- x 41
Re: Translation in language learning
Based on my Anki experience, I would suggest this kind of card:
Front: Es un momento difícil para la industria.
Back: It’s a difficult time for the industry.
difícil: [definition]
[Audio]
Point is to have only one new word in the card (i+1). Also, having the audio on the back helps with cementing/correcting prosody and intonation.
Front: Es un momento difícil para la industria.
Back: It’s a difficult time for the industry.
difícil: [definition]
[Audio]
Point is to have only one new word in the card (i+1). Also, having the audio on the back helps with cementing/correcting prosody and intonation.
1 x
Corrections welcome!
- samfrances
- Orange Belt
- Posts: 201
- Joined: Mon Jul 20, 2015 2:41 pm
- Location: United Kingdom
- Languages: Native: British English
Learning: Spanish (B1/B2) - Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2967
- x 311
Re: Translation in language learning
Thanks for your comments, all.
I'll not worry to much then, and make translations cards where convenient.
I'll not worry to much then, and make translations cards where convenient.
0 x
: : Schaum's grammar, Fluent Forever
: : Learn / make flashcards for 1000 most frequent Spanish words
Sam's Spanish Log
Sam's Year of Reading Only Spanish
Dipping my toe into Latin
: : Learn / make flashcards for 1000 most frequent Spanish words
Sam's Spanish Log
Sam's Year of Reading Only Spanish
Dipping my toe into Latin
-
- Orange Belt
- Posts: 242
- Joined: Wed Mar 21, 2018 6:54 pm
- Languages: English, Portuguese, Spanish, Catalan, French, Persian, Arabic, Mandarin, Japanese.
- x 444
Re: Translation in language learning
I will make sense of the audio by repeating one sentence at time, referring to the transcription and the translation freely. I avoid using dictionaries as much as possible, relying on the translation to get the meaning. I will only use a dictionary if the translation feels inadequate. This is so because I need to speed things up.
Using a monolingual dictionary instead would probably be good, adding extra reading to the process, however my level is not high enough that I can understand the definitions easily.
On the next day I will listen again to the snippets of every sentence (one subtitle line) that gave me trouble. I don't use Anki, but the the format is front: Audio, back: Transcription+Translation. Those that I now could understand after one or two repeats, without referring to the transcript or the translation, are deleted and not reviewed in isolation ever again.
On the next day, I do this again for the remaining fragments, but this is the last time I review them in isolation, regardless of being able to understand them. I could continue the process for a few more days, and get closer to 100%, but on the third day I have already eliminated most fragments, only a few hard ones remain. I feel those are not worth wasting more time on, I'd rather proceed to new material.
Then I only review by listening again to the whole audio, which can be repeated at long, irregular, intervals, because the ability to understand it becomes very persistent. This workflow currently brings up my comprehension from about 30/40% to 90/95%.
Using a monolingual dictionary instead would probably be good, adding extra reading to the process, however my level is not high enough that I can understand the definitions easily.
On the next day I will listen again to the snippets of every sentence (one subtitle line) that gave me trouble. I don't use Anki, but the the format is front: Audio, back: Transcription+Translation. Those that I now could understand after one or two repeats, without referring to the transcript or the translation, are deleted and not reviewed in isolation ever again.
On the next day, I do this again for the remaining fragments, but this is the last time I review them in isolation, regardless of being able to understand them. I could continue the process for a few more days, and get closer to 100%, but on the third day I have already eliminated most fragments, only a few hard ones remain. I feel those are not worth wasting more time on, I'd rather proceed to new material.
Then I only review by listening again to the whole audio, which can be repeated at long, irregular, intervals, because the ability to understand it becomes very persistent. This workflow currently brings up my comprehension from about 30/40% to 90/95%.
1 x
- TeoLanguages
- Orange Belt
- Posts: 121
- Joined: Sun Nov 11, 2018 11:04 am
- Languages: Italian (N)
English (C1)
Spanish (C1)
French (B1)
German (A2) - x 165
Re: Translation in language learning
I've no much experience with Anki but I consider translation a vital technique/tool in my language learning journey, especially in the beginner stage. A combo made of context and translation is priceless way to boost my vocabulary as well as giving me a grasp of the target language. That's why I feel particularly comfortable applying the bidirectional translation to Assimil's material.
3 x
Return to “Practical Questions and Advice”
Who is online
Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests