If I get a book on learning german that's written in spanish, will my head explode?

[Lisa]

I'm thinking a german-spanish dictionary could keep my B1 spanish in my head as I start on german.

On amazon.mx I turned up, and looked-inside, a book for learning german written for spanish speakers. It was confusing. However, that's just a peek. This seems like a crazy idea that will result in no progress. But I'm guessing this has been done?

[Doitsujin]

This seems like a crazy idea that will result in no progress. But I'm guessing this has been done?

IIRC some members successfully used the original French Assimil courses if no translated courses were available.

However, the quality of textbooks available on Amazon varies greatly and even textbooks by major publishers often have major deficiencies. IMHO, a case in point are the pronunciation guides in Inglés Para Dummies by Gail Brenner.


I'm pretty sure that students who follow the pronunciation guides in this textbook will be understood, but, IMHO, the author should also have included IPA symbols or at least used the respelling notation found in major American dictionaries.

If you've made up your mind about trying this approach, have at least German speaking LLORG members vet the textbook(s) that you plan to use.

You also might want to consider watching TV shows and movies with a media player that can display multiple subtitles. For example, you could use KMPlayer or PotPlayer to watch TV shows with German and Spanish subtitles. If you don't want to install an additional media player, there are also several apps and websites that allow you to merge subtitles.

[Speakeasy]

This type of question appears fairly often as a variant of “Which level is appropriate for L2 to L3 language learning” and, while the answers vary slightly, generally speaking, many members recommend that anyone attempting this should possess a comfortable B2 level, perhaps not in speaking, but at least in reading and listening. Here is one of several such discussions*: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language - LLORG - August 2017 Using an L2/L3 dictionary at the B1 level is feasible and could even be enjoyable and motivating, but it might be a little premature.

*Serpent has commented on more than one occasion that people do not click on the links which others include in their posts and, even for the small number who do so, in cases where the linked articles or discussions are lengthy, no one actually reads them. I tend to agree with her. Nevertheless, as the linked discussion thread contains some comments which are very pertinent to your question, I suggest that you take the time to read through it.

[tungemål]

It is not a good idea. I did this, I used a German book to study Polish. My reason was that the textbook seemed to be a good one, and that I wanted to exercise my German.

Firstly, it didn't matter that much because I naturally focused on the target language (Polish) and didn't use German much. That means I didn't really get much exercise in German.

Secondly, a couple of times I misunderstood the translations into German, or I had to use extra time to look up German words. So it was just inefficient.

Just use an English textbook, and keep up your Spanish by reading something else in Spanish.

[Cavesa]

Using a resource based in a foreign language, one you are at least B1 at, is not a problem.
Using a bad resource is a huge problem.

The book you've found may be confusing, but it may have very little to do with the base language. It might just be a bad book. It is important to tell these two problems apart.

It is actually normal to use stuff, that is not based in one's native language. People like me do it a lot, because our native languages simply do not give us much of a choice. Using a course based in one of my stronger foreign languages is no problem. But when I am comparing them to courses in my native language, I simply pick a better course. Sometimes, it is the one in my native language, sometimes not. When I finally start a more exotic language properly, I won't even have a choice anymore.

If you want to go this way and practice your second language while learning the third, just pick a good resource and/or method. Learning vocab from a dictionary is definitely a good thing to do, but I'd recommend a dictionary with example sentences (I am still gathering courage to learn from my huge Fr-De Larousse). Or there are bilingual vocab builders. Translation based grammar workbooks are rare these days, but they exist. Assimil is an example of a course, that can be very valuable for both the languages. Grammars with explanations for the native of your second language can be very useful at helping you fight interferences. A good coursebook will work nicely, and you might profit from a different angle to look at the new language from.

But in general, you'll still want to switch to monolingual resources at some point (usually during the intermediate phase), so there is no point in overthinking this and letting it get in your way. And you'll need to challenge yourself both in Spanish and German, if you want to progress in them both. Just learning German from Spanish won't do the trick.

[Kraut]

You can use this course for comparison of grammar points via translated example sentences.
The lengthy explanations of the grammar points in Spanish may be excellent but would be a waste of time and energy if you did that.

https://www.curso-de-aleman.de/grammati ... ichnis.htm

https://www.curso-de-aleman.de/grammati ... _nicht.htm

https://www.curso-de-aleman.de/grammati ... ombres.htm

[Lisa]

This type of question appears fairly often as a variant of “Which level is appropriate for L2 to L3 language learning” and, while the answers vary slightly, generally speaking, many members recommend that anyone attempting this should possess a comfortable B2 level, perhaps not in speaking, but at least in reading and listening. Here is one of several such discussions*: Which language to use as base, when learning a new language - LLORG - August 2017 Using an L2/L3 dictionary at the B1 level is feasible and could even be enjoyable and motivating, but it might be a little premature.

Yes, of course! That thread went off on some tangents, and of course the main thing I learn is we're all different. I do forget, with the massive wealth of english-spanish resources out there, that if you aren't a native english speaker and you are learning a less mainstream language there isn't always this luxury. So this is a well-travelled path.

I don't think I'll be able to give time to spanish if I start german and I expect german to wipe out the spanish... so I'm thinking of how to force the spanish to stick.

You can use this course for comparison of grammar points via translated example sentences.
The lengthy explanations of the grammar points in Spanish may be excellent but would be a waste of time and energy if you did that.
https://www.curso-de-aleman.de/grammati ... ichnis.htm
https://www.curso-de-aleman.de/grammati ... _nicht.htm
https://www.curso-de-aleman.de/grammati ... ombres.htm

I found this site quite entertaining... it's got a folksy tone and the explanations write out the spanish rather than making assumptions. It seems quite manageable. I'm not sure it's the most efficient way to recover german... but it might be the most fun!

[coldrainwater]

Lisa,

I took a look at your log and noticed that we have very similar language interests and are even at a similar stage in learning. Given that I feel like I am right in the thick of doing what you are considering, I have a few ideas that are fresh on my mind and that you might find useful.

You stated specifically that you need output practice to improve Spanish (so do I). As I encounter and am learning German vocabulary, I find it very fruitful to produce simple Spanish definitions given a German source term. I just type them out and have Wordreference ready if I don't actively know the term in Spanish, which creates a much richer context (more to choose from and I can pick the very best of both target worlds). For example, I prefer associating Zunft with gremio or cofradía than simply with guild, Pilz with hongo or seta, and Puddel with caniche.

With respect to DE<->ES dictionaries, I own several and definitely prefer/recommend Langenscheidt. My reservation in your case, outside of what has already been mentioned is that you might find yourself getting both ES and DE input at the same time, which may not be ideal and more importantly may not help you produce either language to the extent you are after. And a quick note on Amazon. If I were you I would look in the direction of DE -> ES to find resources generally. It is been my experience that Amazon is huge in Germany but highly underutilized in Mexico. So I would do amazon.de without hesitation. With respect to dictionaries, you might consider owning a visual wordbook ES/DE as a supplement since the focus is on the photos and they tend not to overemphasize any single language in my experience.

What I think might be a critical step for you is finding outlets for speaking and writing practice that are in addition to actual people conversation since you live in a geographic area that makes Spanish output tough. In that vein, for writing you might take a look at a forum like abretelibro and see if that community is a good fit for you (you never know) for writing practice. In general, you can always pick one of the two languages and make most or all of your output in that language (personal notes, diaries, emails, thoughts, reflexions, subvocalization). Notably having one input language and another output has been good for me (while I still need the ES or EN and can't get go full DE). I haven't found a conflict in that regard and don't feel it has slowed down my learning efforts.

You will likely need dedicated time for each language as mentioned already, but there is plenty of room to use one with other seamlessly. I think letting some parts atrophy while bringing up another language is likely just part of the game, but you can definitely enjoy both worlds, especially 'only' juggling 2-3 languages.

Edit: I also forgot to mention that I have my Transover chrome extension set to translate into Spanish and reverse translate to German, a great combo. So as I am consuming more German web-input, I can see quite excellent word associations that I might not otherwise make on the fly.

My overall conclusion is that DE matches best with EN (and FR perhaps with ES as a comparable example), and I know perhaps the bulk of my resources may be English-based. From that vantage point, I am using the above thoughts/resources/techniques to enrich the overall context and I look for places where they fit without being forced.

[Lisa]

@coldrainwater, thank you for the thoughtful post!

Writing german anki definitions in spanish is a great idea... I have tried to write spanish ones in spanish but it's hard to talk around a word.

A question: do you definitely think producing written output helps with speaking? I'm afraid book learning and practical spoken language are different experiences, as much of my vocabulary appears more written than spoken. However... perhaps casual writing as in online forums might be closer to spoken than written. I took a look at abretelibro... someone was dissing Tolkien... but still, it does appear a more casual style than the books I've been reading.

Here's the thing: you're right about writing for myself in Spanish, and yes, I ought to keep my language log, at least, in Spanish... but frankly it's too hard, too much work... and at the end I don't know if it's correct (well, I know there are errors but I don't know what they are), so it's more frustrating than satisfying. So I never quite get to it.

We'll see how it all when I get back to German. Does amazon.de ship to the US? I was looking at .mx since I'll be there and thinking about buying something locally, perhaps at a bookstore. But I also hadn't thought about online learning resources DE-ES, as in the links @Kraut posted.

[coldrainwater]

In my world, producing written output is almost always helpful for speech. I usually go at that process without people help, but I definitely do not go at it alone. The tools I use to correct my own writing are the same tools I use to self-correct my own speech. I definitely agree that writing is certainly difficult and it takes far too long (at least initially). As a way around that, personal notes and brief definitions do not suffer the same problems and offer a much more pleasant overall experience. For me, those plus emails mimic what I actually do from one day to the next and they add up. Both ideas can be implemented immediately and don't require any extra time commitment to embark upon. Iguanamon I know uses Twitter with great impact as well and has written about it on numerous occasions. I suspect part of that is the popularity of short messaging systems and real-time efficiencies (plus the ability to find, follow and emulate specific personalities and connect with people). Notes can be taken on the fly and don't require a writer's sabbatical to finish the first paragraph. At the end of it all, I think what matters most about the output is what you intend to say/write and then actually follow through with. From the outset, it is really helpful to approach it with the mindset of generating your own TL output rather than speaking English. I would not let the absence of a conversation partner hold you back. It is your own personal idiolect that ends up coming into existence and likely won't be as colloquial as you might hope nor as bookish as you might fear. It can be quite empowering to focus on generating speech via self-talk then use tools (some outlined below) to ensure that what you came up with is right after necessary amendments and often before anyone else even hears you.

You can be reasonably sure that what you write is 'correct' if you take advantage of several of the free tools we have at our disposal now. Perhaps the most helpful for me is DeepL due to higher overall accuracy and the potential to shape the Spanish output (I am assuming for example's sake that you have a colloquial English sentence that you would like to learn to produce in Spanish on the left side, but maybe don't know immediately). Click on the Spanish output it gives to see alternatives going word by word from left to right (and as a hint, often the most succinct and higher up the selection list tend to be the best in my experience). I don't rely on DeepL alone but used to pair it with roughly 3+ additional tools:

If I am just looking up a turn of phrase or collocation to make sure I can output something equivalent in Spanish (I mindfully do this when something like that pops into mind and I know for sure I can't regurgitate it in Spanish) I like using Reverso Context paired with WordReference. Both in my experience are very colloquial and WordReference is rarely wrong. Don't be afraid to capture collocations just like you would individual words as you are building up a repertoire of speech. Then use them, even if only speaking with yourself.

Sadly Grammarly doesn't exist in Spanish. However, there is something. It is very far from perfect, but Spanishchecker.com helped me quite a bit. It caught many of my earlier, more persistent base-level writing errors and helped to improve output. Writing had a cumulative impact on me over time. I am still roughly an intermediate Spanish writer, but the fluidity is there and I can say or express in writing most anything I want, albeit after effort (after some time there is a lot less strain in writing it) and the vocabulary is extremely beneficial. More useful words mean less talking around and more advanced overall language.

As a side note, you may not need as much output as you think, even heading into Mexico. Short bursts, especially initially and being able to communicate the ideas and share human interaction is often quite endearing. Things get far more difficult if you can't understand the speech you hear, but even then, Mexican culture is awesome (and forgiving) and you will come away with a great experience I expect.