Need Input Training Advice

[Nkh25]

Hi everyone,

I am brand new to this forum but have a passion for learning languages and I would love to progress in my language learning goals!

I was hoping to get some advice from fellow language learners. I am currently in the process of studying a minority language; Hmong. Unfortunately, Hmong has very few resources. There are plenty of online videos in Hmong but the biggest problem is that the majority of them don’t have any transcript in the language itself or in my language. What is the best way to do input training when faced with this problem?

There are quite a bit of Hmong lyric videos that provide some transcripts in the language. Does anyone have any advice for learning from lyric videos?

Any advice for learning a minority language is greatly appreciated!



Thanks for your time,

Nkh25

[coldrainwater]

I lack the experience needed to give advice, but I did come across some resources that may be of interest if you haven't seen this page already:

renincorp.org/bookshelf/

You might have success looking for audio to accompany some of this reference material rather than vice-versa. No doubt others will see this thread with direct experience in your language of interest and I am sure they will have more to offer.

[Nkh25]

I lack the experience needed to give advice, but I did come across some resources that may be of interest if you haven't seen this page already:

renincorp.org/bookshelf/

You might have success looking for audio to accompany some of this reference material rather than vice-versa. No doubt others will see this thread with direct experience in your language of interest and I am sure they will have more to offer.

Thank you so much for your advice! This helps immensely. I’ve been hunting the internet for various resources and never came across this page which is full of cultural and historical information as well. Thank you again! I will be diving into this today.

[iguanamon]

...I am brand new to this forum but have a passion for learning languages and I would love to progress in my language learning goals! ... I am currently in the process of studying a minority language; Hmong. Unfortunately, Hmong has very few resources. There are plenty of online videos in Hmong but the biggest problem is that the majority of them don’t have any transcript in the language itself or in my language. What is the best way to do input training when faced with this problem?
There are quite a bit of Hmong lyric videos that provide some transcripts in the language. Does anyone have any advice for learning from lyric videos?
Any advice for learning a minority language is greatly appreciated!

First, welcome to the forum, Nkh25! I see from your profile that you have some experience in learning languages. You've set yourself a tough challenge with learning Hmong. First, it's an Asian language, quite distant from our own. Second, as you've said, there are few resources available. Third, it's probably a tonal language and that's another kettle of fish.

I have learned languages with few resources available. I wrote about it here in more detail. As I said in that post, you have to take what you can get and do the best you can with it. This may mean using the Bible as a resource: Hmong Bible Text and also there is an Audio download of the New Testament Bible available in 2 dialects and Bible.is. This can give you both audio and the basis to make a parallel text with English on one side.

For me, the New Testament isn't as good a resource to use as the Old Testament... but... if you can't find an OT, then it's what there is. It doesn't have to be the Bible. You can use any resource that is a faithful translation (or has a faithful translation) of something in your native language... which leads me to talking about using government and NGO resources. I used the Center for Applied Linguistics Phrasebook when I was learning Haitian Creole. So, I popped over to their site and they do indeed have a free Hmong phrasebook. Of course, there's no audio, and it may not be the dialect you are learning. Also, I'm going to assume you are in the US. It might be a good idea to search government agencies in states and cities with large Hmong refugee populations. I seem to remember that Minnesota has a Hmong population, and I think somewhere in Northern California too. You may be able to find texts explaining government services and health precautions, but again, I seriously doubt there will be any audio available.

You can also find some courses to use, I'm sure. Just google search Hmong language course. You haven't stated your reasoning for learning Hmong. Perhaps you know a native-speaker or live in a city with a large Hmong refugee population? A helpful native-speaker can be a huge resource. You can use forum member Bakunin's "growing participator" method images he wrote about how he uses it here: (description) with a willing native-speaker.

How to use songs: Unless you have a bilingual transcript, it will be difficult. Plus, there's the added factor that the language being from Southeast Asia, is probably a tonal language. It may be difficult to suss out the tones in a song. I'd wait to use these until you have a better understanding of the language and its pronunciation. I'm sure there have been other English-speakers who have learned Hmong. Searching online for them may give you some tips. Lastly, don't forget to read the wikipedia article on the Hmong language.

Learning a minority language isn't for the timid. You will have to be dedicated, consistent and absolutely persistent to the max. You will run into a lot of dead ends, but don't give up. You'll have to become good at searching and will have to accept less than ideal resources. I wish you good luck!

[Nkh25]

First, welcome to the forum, Nkh25! I see from your profile that you have some experience in learning languages. You've set yourself a tough challenge with learning Hmong. First, it's an Asian language, quite distant from our own. Second, as you've said, there are few resources available. Third, it's probably a tonal language and that's another kettle of fish.

I have learned languages with few resources available. I wrote about it here in more detail. As I said in that post, you have to take what you can get and do the best you can with it. This may mean using the Bible as a resource: Hmong Bible Text and also there is an Audio download of the New Testament Bible available in 2 dialects and Bible.is. This can give you both audio and the basis to make a parallel text with English on one side.

For me, the New Testament isn't as good a resource to use as the Old Testament... but... if you can't find an OT, then it's what there is. It doesn't have to be the Bible. You can use any resource that is a faithful translation (or has a faithful translation) of something in your native language... which leads me to talking about using government and NGO resources. I used the Center for Applied Linguistics Phrasebook when I was learning Haitian Creole. So, I popped over to their site and they do indeed have a free Hmong phrasebook. Of course, there's no audio, and it may not be the dialect you are learning. Also, I'm going to assume you are in the US. It might be a good idea to search government agencies in states and cities with large Hmong refugee populations. I seem to remember that Minnesota has a Hmong population, and I think somewhere in Northern California too. You may be able to find texts explaining government services and health precautions, but again, I seriously doubt there will be any audio available.

You can also find some courses to use, I'm sure. Just google search Hmong language course. You haven't stated your reasoning for learning Hmong. Perhaps you know a native-speaker or live in a city with a large Hmong refugee population? A helpful native-speaker can be a huge resource. You can use forum member Bakunin's "growing participator" method images he wrote about how he uses it here: (description) with a willing native-speaker.

How to use songs: Unless you have a bilingual transcript, it will be difficult. Plus, there's the added factor that the language being from Southeast Asia, is probably a tonal language. It may be difficult to suss out the tones in a song. I'd wait to use these until you have a better understanding of the language and its pronunciation. I'm sure there have been other English-speakers who have learned Hmong. Searching online for them may give you some tips. Lastly, don't forget to read the wikipedia article on the Hmong language.

Learning a minority language isn't for the timid. You will have to be dedicated, consistent and absolutely persistent to the max. You will run into a lot of dead ends, but don't give up. You'll have to become good at searching and will have to accept less than ideal resources. I wish you good luck!

Thank you so much for you long and detailed post! I really appreciate the time you took to write this. I already have learned the pronunciation and the tones for Hmong and can read native material to a decent degree. Tonal languages don’t bother me. I find them absolutely fascinating. I’ve dabbled heavily in Mandarin Chinese before taking on Hmong.

I live in a state which has a very large Hmong population. And some of my closest friends are Hmong. I love the people and really want to open up a deeper connection and understanding by speaking their language. I am currently focusing on learning Hmoob Dawb, but eventually as I progress I plan to delve into the Moob Ntsuab dialect as well.

The Bible is one of the biggest resources I have found in the language and plan to use it as a major way to acquire vocabulary. I really am curious about what you said. Why do you find the Old Testament better to use then the New Testament in terms of language learning? I would love to hear more on this. Do you have any advice on how to go about learning through this method? Is it simply look up every word I don’t understand, compare to the parallel translation, and listen to the audio to help solidify it?

I enjoyed reading your post on learning a minority language. You seem very familiar with learning a language that lacks a ton of resources. I also read your post called the “Multi-Track Approach.”

After reading that post I plan on selecting two texts, most likely the phrase book and a basic course book I found for those learning Hmong. Then using some native material to supplement my learning. Thank you for the phrase book link! It seems there is some audio for it too from what I found on the web.

If you don’t mind me asking, in your journey learning how to speak Haitian Creole what conversation topics did you find useful when practicing with native speakers? There is a Hmong market that I visit frequently, but I haven’t practiced with native speakers there besides some greetings and very basic exchanges. I want to make it a goal to get over my fear and visit at least once a week to practice speaking with them. But, I find myself having difficulty finding topics to talk about as a beginner.

Thanks again!

[iguanamon]

I live in a state which has a very large Hmong population. And some of my closest friends are Hmong. I love the people and really want to open up a deeper connection and understanding by speaking their language. ... The Bible is one of the biggest resources I have found in the language and plan to use it as a major way to acquire vocabulary. I really am curious about what you said. Why do you find the Old Testament better to use then the New Testament in terms of language learning? I would love to hear more on this. Do you have any advice on how to go about learning through this method? Is it simply look up every word I don’t understand, compare to the parallel translation, and listen to the audio to help solidify it?

.
When using the Bible for learning, I like to start at the Beginning, literally, with Genesis- using a parallel text I made myself. (I found some audio for Hmong Genesis here.) There are several reasons: I know the story well. It is a narrative. There's lots of repetition of basic vocabulary. The vocabulary is simpler and more everyday than what's in the Gospels and Epistles in the NT. All those ages of the patriarchs in Genesis really help with numbers (if they are written out). Of course, what makes it good for learning is also a downside for enjoyment in that there's lots of repetition.

I also have a companion chapter study to go along with my readings (with audio- though my resource has no Hmong available) which reinforces what I have just read. So, learning by using the Bible as a resource is about more than just looking up unknown words. Looking up unknown words is an important part of the process. Of course, there will be Bible specific words that won't be of much use outside of a biblical context, but they will be far outweighed by other words which will be more common.

The process of learning really gets going for me by reading and listening to the companion chapter study because of the reinforcement and it makes me think about what I have read in the language. Hopefully, you can find something. The thing about this is that as a beginner, it doesn't do you much good until you have enough of a base that you aren't looking up every single word! Work your way up to it. Don't try to read the whole megillah in one go. Start slowly with a verse a day or two or three. It may take you a month or two to get through Genesis 1:1 and that's fine!

According to your profile and what you shared about Mandarin, you have yet to learn a language to a high level. One of the things a lot of experienced learners here discount is how much benefit they have in language-learning from having already successfully learned a language in the past. I had Spanish and Portuguese pretty much under the belt before I started Haitian Creole and Lesser Antilles Creole. I really took off with Ladino once I learned to read in Rashi and Solitreo scripts. The benefit is about more than just similarity in languages. Having already learned a second language on my own gave me confidence in learning a next one on my own. I knew how to learn on my own already. I knew there would be good days and bad days; that there would be setbacks; that I didn't have to obsess about learning every single flippin' word to get my vocabulary amount up to a random specific number. I knew that I could adjust to not having perfect resources. The mistake that many monlingual beginners make is in expecting that a course will do all the heavy lifting for them when really, it's just providing a framework for the learner to do that on their own.

If you don’t mind me asking, in your journey learning how to speak Haitian Creole what conversation topics did you find useful when practicing with native speakers? There is a Hmong market that I visit frequently, but I haven’t practiced with native speakers there besides some greetings and very basic exchanges. I want to make it a goal to get over my fear and visit at least once a week to practice speaking with them. But, I find myself having difficulty finding topics to talk about as a beginner.

At first, when I was learning HC, I had lunch once a week with a Haitian friend. We would chat normally in English and then I would point to something and ask in HC "How do you say this in Creole?" or I would perform an action and ask about it (simple things like- pushing a button; buttoning a shirt; checking my phone messages; tying my shoe, etc.), or I would ask about what someone else nearby was doing. As my vocabulary grew (I was doing a course at the same time) my questions and interactions grew more complex. Often times what I was learning in these sessions went beyond what I was learning in the course, but I would see it later and think, "oh yeah, that's right". I would also use those sessions to reinforce my course learning. My friend would often ask me what I had been learning since we last met and I would tell her and that would lead to further discussion. I always brought a small notepad with me and would write down words and phrases or would have her write down words and phrases. Sometimes I would record them on my phone and listen later. I also had a "language island"where I would introduce myself; where I was from; what I did for a living; talk a bit about my family and explain why I was learning HC. She helped me work on that and get it right. I really like Bakunnin's "growing participator" illustrations as an idea for learning. Perhaps you might want to think about using them in a short session with a native. I can just tell you, that my HC lunch-learning sessions were worth every penny I paid for lunch, the time I spent, and then some. I was sad when my friend left island to go to the mainland US. We stay in touch by email and phone. To sum up, beginner conversations are not about long friendly chats. You can't do that yet. Accept it. Learn simple things and build on them and you will work your way up. You won't always stay in "babyhood" in the language. You will progress.

Hopefully, with a personal connection and motivation, you will take Hmong to a high level, then maybe related languages might be easier pick-ups. If not, there's nothing wrong with learning a bit of a language either. As long as you enjoy what you're doing and the learning process, it's worth it. Good luck, and start a log here. Even though there may be no Hmong learners here, you never know, someone may fall lout of lurker land and there are several learners of Asian languages here who can probably give you better advice than I can. Plus, there will be more experienced learners who can guide you with general language-learning advice.

Edits: Oh yeah, remember, Google and youtube searches are your friends (especially once you learn how to search in Hmong language itself): Hmong Language study with the Bible- flashcards, tests and Hmong Theological Dictionary (free and legal download pdf). Remember to think outside the box. Some ideas: Invite a Hmong-speaker to lunch once a week. Attend a Hmong church service or volunteer in the community or church. It's perfectly ok to listen more than you speak. I searched for Hmong Bible on you tube and there are videos with text available of chapter readings. Perhaps, if you have programming skills, you could use them for subs2srs.

[Nkh25]

When using the Bible for learning, I like to start at the Beginning, literally, with Genesis- using a parallel text I made myself. (I found some audio for Hmong Genesis here.) There are several reasons: I know the story well. It is a narrative. There's lots of repetition of basic vocabulary. The vocabulary is simpler and more everyday than what's in the Gospels and Epistles in the NT. All those ages of the patriarchs in Genesis really help with numbers (if they are written out). Of course, what makes it good for learning is also a downside for enjoyment in that there's lots of repetition.

I also have a companion chapter study to go along with my readings (with audio- though my resource has no Hmong available) which reinforces what I have just read. So, learning by using the Bible as a resource is about more than just looking up unknown words. Looking up unknown words is an important part of the process. Of course, there will be Bible specific words that won't be of much use outside of a biblical context, but they will be far outweighed by other words which will be more common.

The process of learning really gets going for me by reading and listening to the companion chapter study because of the reinforcement and it makes me think about what I have read in the language. Hopefully, you can find something. The thing about this is that as a beginner, it doesn't do you much good until you have enough of a base that you aren't looking up every single word! Work your way up to it. Don't try to read the whole megillah in one go. Start slowly with a verse a day or two or three. It may take you a month or two to get through Genesis 1:1 and that's fine!

According to your profile and what you shared about Mandarin, you have yet to learn a language to a high level. One of the things a lot of experienced learners here discount is how much benefit they have in language-learning from having already successfully learned a language in the past. I had Spanish and Portuguese pretty much under the belt before I started Haitian Creole and Lesser Antilles Creole. I really took off with Ladino once I learned to read in Rashi and Solitreo scripts. The benefit is about more than just similarity in languages. Having already learned a second language on my own gave me confidence in learning a next one on my own. I knew how to learn on my own already. I knew there would be good days and bad days; that there would be setbacks; that I didn't have to obsess about learning every single flippin' word to get my vocabulary amount up to a random specific number. I knew that I could adjust to not having perfect resources. The mistake that many monlingual beginners make is in expecting that a course will do all the heavy lifting for them when really, it's just providing a framework for the learner to do that on their own.

At first, when I was learning HC, I had lunch once a week with a Haitian friend. We would chat normally in English and then I would point to something and ask in HC "How do you say this in Creole?" or I would perform an action and ask about it (simple things like- pushing a button; buttoning a shirt; checking my phone messages; tying my shoe, etc.), or I would ask about what someone else nearby was doing. As my vocabulary grew (I was doing a course at the same time) my questions and interactions grew more complex. Often times what I was learning in these sessions went beyond what I was learning in the course, but I would see it later and think, "oh yeah, that's right". I would also use those sessions to reinforce my course learning. My friend would often ask me what I had been learning since we last met and I would tell her and that would lead to further discussion. I always brought a small notepad with me and would write down words and phrases or would have her write down words and phrases. Sometimes I would record them on my phone and listen later. I also had a "language island"where I would introduce myself; where I was from; what I did for a living; talk a bit about my family and explain why I was learning HC. She helped me work on that and get it right. I really like Bakunnin's "growing participator" illustrations as an idea for learning. Perhaps you might want to think about using them in a short session with a native. I can just tell you, that my HC lunch-learning sessions were worth every penny I paid for lunch, the time I spent, and then some. I was sad when my friend left island to go to the mainland US. We stay in touch by email and phone. To sum up, beginner conversations are not about long friendly chats. You can't do that yet. Accept it. Learn simple things and build on them and you will work your way up. You won't always stay in "babyhood" in the language. You will progress.

Hopefully, with a personal connection and motivation, you will take Hmong to a high level, then maybe related languages might be easier pick-ups. If not, there's nothing wrong with learning a bit of a language either. As long as you enjoy what your doing and the learning process, it's worth it. Good luck, and start a log here. Even though there may be no Hmong learners here, you never know, someone may fall lout of lurker land and there are several learners of Asian languages here who can probably give you better advice than I can. Plus, there will be more experienced learners who can guide you with general language-learning advice.

Edits: Oh yeah, remember, Google and youtube searches are your friends (especially once you learn how to search in Hmong language itself): Hmong Language study with the Bible- flashcards, tests and Hmong Theological Dictionary (free and legal download pdf). Remember to think outside the box. Some ideas: Invite a Hmong-speaker to lunch once a week. Attend a Hmong church service or volunteer in the community or church. It's perfectly ok to listen more than you speak. I searched for Hmong Bible on you tube and there are videos with text available of chapter readings. Perhaps, if you have programming skills, you could use them for subs2srs.

Once again I want to thank you for the time and effort that you put in to help a complete stranger and a beginner language learner.

After reading your explanation I can certainly see why the Old Testament would be a logical choice to start with. I tend to be the type to bite off more than I can chew because of my enthusiasm at the beginning. So starting with small chunks seems the best way to go.

The “growing participator” illustrations seem like they would be a fun and interesting tool to use at the Hmong market or with some personal friends I know. I’ll definitely keep that in mind.

As for your tips on beginner conversations this sounds like a solid way to start off. Can’t learn to run if I don’t even know how to walk yet. I simply have to get over my fear of making mistakes because in the end that’s how we grow and learn.

I will definitely start a log today! It’d be a great way to keep myself accountable, have a record of my journey, and perhaps one day it will help others who wish to learn a minority language too!

Thanks again for your input and happy language learning!

Nkh25

[iguanamon]

Once again I want to thank you for the time and effort that you put in to help a complete stranger and a beginner language learner.

You're welcome. That's why we're here on the forum. I have gotten so much from the forum over the years. It's important to give back. Learning a less commonly learned, minority, language is not quite the same as learning one of the FIGS. Glad to be of help.

I will definitely start a log today! It’d be a great way to keep myself accountable, have a record of my journey, and perhaps one day it will help others who wish to learn a minority language too!

I shall look forward to following your progress in your new log. It's always nice to watch someone learn a language outside of the mainstream and learn about a culture that doesn't get a lot of attention too. Someday your log may indeed be an inspiration to someone else who is learning a minority language. Good luck!