I am ignorant about this topic; it was just yesterday that I first stumbled to this topic as I was reading a book on vocabulary. I think this will explain part of my difficulties in speaking my second language, English. Besides all the multiple pronunciation challenges I have when speaking each word with a strong Spanish accent, to top that off, there is this rhythm of the language, of the stress-time language that I need to work on.
So, for the native English or German speakers, do you clearly hear the difference when Spanish, French, Italians speak English or German in syllable time intonation?
Are you aware of this (that the syllable time is being used by the foreign speaker) or it just sounds funny?
Can it be fixed?
I am in beginning face of learning German (a stress-time language) so I would like to learn it right from the beginning, any advice?
A stress-timed language is a language where the stressed syllables are said at approximately regular intervals, and unstressed syllables shorten to fit this rhythm. Stress-timed languages can be compared with syllable-timed ones, where each syllable takes roughly the same amount of time.
Example English and German are examples of stress-timed languages, while Spanish and Cantonese are syllable-timed.
In the classroom Learners whose first language is syllable-timed often have problems producing the unstressed sounds in a stress-timed language like English, tending to give them equal stress.
The advice I always give to learners of English whose language is syllable timed is to move your hand or top your foot, but only on the stressed syllables.
Take this script for the world's shortest romantic film:
"I love you, I love you, I love you. I hate you, I hate you, I hate you. Marry me, Marry me, Marry me."
If you beat your chest on the stressed syllables (it helps if you take a break or extra beat between lines), your brain tends to adapt your speaking to match the physical movement and it sounds more natural.
You can do this in other sentences by tapping your toe, tapping your hand/finger on your leg, or just moving your hand in the air. The human body has rhythm -- if it didn't, we wouldn't be able to walk. Use that rhythm to your advantage!!
Languages: English (N). Read (only) French and Spanish. Studying Ancient Greek. Studying a bit of Latin. Once studied Old Norse. Dabbled in Catalan, Provençal and Italian.
mentecuerpo wrote:So, for the native English or German speakers, do you clearly hear the difference when Spanish, French, Italians speak English or German in syllable time intonation? Are you aware of this (that the syllable time is being used by the foreign speaker) or it just sounds funny? Can it be fixed?
1. No, and many of my neighbors speak English with a Spanish accent. And my ex's mother was Italian who learned English I suppose in high school. Her accent remained strong even after living in the States for more than 50 years. So I have lots of practice listening to Spanish-accented English. 2. No. Accents can sound funny, or charming, or neutral. 3. No idea.
1 x
Many things which are false are transmitted from book to book, and gain credit in the world. -- attributed to Samuel Johnson
The advice I always give to learners of English whose language is syllable timed is to move your hand or top your foot, but only on the stressed syllables.
Take this script for the world's shortest romantic film:
"I love you, I love you, I love you. I hate you, I hate you, I hate you. Marry me, Marry me, Marry me."
If you beat your chest on the stressed syllables (it helps if you take a break or extra beat between lines), your brain tends to adapt your speaking to match the physical movement and it sounds more natural.
You can do this in other sentences by tapping your toe, tapping your hand/finger on your leg, or just moving your hand in the air. The human body has rhythm -- if it didn't, we wouldn't be able to walk. Use that rhythm to your advantage!!
I think the tapping should be done with the left hand, I found this article, with the left hand tapping:
For over 100 years, clinicians have noted that patients with nonfluent aphasia are capable of singing words that they cannot speak. Thus, the use of melody and rhythm has long been recommended for improving aphasic patients’ fluency, but it was not until 1973 that a music-based treatment (Melodic Intonation Therapy, (MIT)) was developed.
According to the National Institutes for Health (NINDS Aphasia Information Page: NINDS, 2008), approximately 1 in 272 Americans suffer from aphasia, a disorder characterized by the loss of ability to produce and/or comprehend language. Despite its prevalence, the neural processes that underlie recovery remain largely unknown and thus, have not been specifically targeted by aphasia therapies. One of the few accepted treatments for severe, nonfluent aphasia is Melodic Intonation Therapy (MIT),1-6 a treatment that uses the musical elements of speech (melody & rhythm) to improve expressive language by capitalizing on preserved function (singing) and engaging language-capable regions in the undamaged right hemisphere.
Left-hand tapping Tapping the left hand may engage a right-hemisphere sensorimotor network that controls both hand and mouth movements.11 It may also facilitate sound-motor mapping, which is a critical component of meaningful vocal communication.12 Furthermore, tapping, like a metronome, may pace the speaker and provide continuous cueing for syllable production.
This might be true, but I notice that the article doesn't describe any experiments that show left-hand tapping to be superior to the right-hand in practice, just the belief that is should be the left because of brain hemisphere specialisation. Most players of stringed instruments across the world do their rhythmic word with their right hands, though, and nobody dances with only one side of the body.
I haven't tested it exhaustively one way or the other personally.
Funny that this morning, someone in my Twitter TL resurrected this old video of a BBC announcer not observing regular English prosody to amusing results:
Anyhow, I think it needs to be pointed out at that paper that mentions left hand tapping is specific towards patients with left brain hemisphere injury or deterioration, which is true of most cases of nonfluent aphasia, a devastating class of aphasia that often affects the left frontal lobe and results in the individual progressively losing their language abilities, as often seen with Alzheimer and other degenerative brain injuries/illnesses. The practice of left hand tapping in this case is to improve plasticity in a damaged brain and to encourage the brain to favor undamaged parts in the right hemisphere, thus hopefully decreasing the rate and progression of teh aphasia. I do not think that this is a good comparison for language learners who, barring exceptions of any among us with such disabilities, we can largely assume have two relatively healthy brain hemispheres.
Additionally, as someone who's autistic and has been dx'd as on the autism spectrum for quite some time now, I assure you a lot of popular ideas about what left/right brain dominance in healthy brains represents is nonsense and not at all backed up by credible research. We autistics have been the target of such quackery for long enough, which has bred a lot of harmful misinformation and misrepresentation of people on the autism spectrum as well as feeding a lot of persistently bad ideas about gender and its relation to the brain and individual talents. So in my admitted yet informed bias here, I really encourage people to avoid indulging in that sort of thing. The reality is that a healthy brain is naturally very plastic because both hemispheres work with each other. The key is to challenge your brain to keep doing lots of stimulating things, like learning or physical activity or even a combination of both. That an activity is right-handed, left-handed or ambidextrous doesn't mean a lot because a health brain's natural plasticity tends to make such distinctions irrelevant as the individual becomes more skilled or experienced at that task. Granted, of course, people born with some degree of ambidexterity tend to have a head start. On behalf of the ambidextrous community, I'd like to say sorry.
So, for the native English or German speakers, do you clearly hear the difference when Spanish, French, Italians speak English or German in syllable time intonation?
Are you aware of this (that the syllable time is being used by the foreign speaker) or it just sounds funny?
Can it be fixed?
I have a lot experience with hearing native Romance language speakers from Europe and Latin America speaking English, so like MorkTheFiddle, I'm very used to it. I have had a lot exposure to Canadian French speakers too but they usually have had more exposure to English speakers so they tend to have a slightly more practiced English prosody. I can hear the difference, but honestly most of the time I am not conscious about it. I come in contact with L2 English speakers nearly every day where I live, so it is as common and normal to me as a more native English prosody. It doesn't sound "funny" to me although I am very aware how it is something that gets mocked a lot in US anglophone culture, because monolinguals don't understand what is involved with learning a second language.
I am unsure what you mean by "fixing it"? Do you mean improving the L2 speaker's English prosody? I think it's an issue that really only needs to be address if the L2 speaker is having difficulty with being understood, which for most of the L2 speakers I encounter here in on the US-MX border isn't that big of an issue, if their pronunciation of English words is otherwise good, because of the cultural familiarity between speakers here. But yes, it can be improved. I have known many Latin Americans who worked very hard to develop a more natural English prosody (this seems most common among younger Latin Americans, in my experience), through a lot of listening, practicing and having native English speakers correct them.
I think what is more of a hurdle for native English and German speakers is listening comprehension of syllable-timed languages. This is usually where you get people whining about how fast native speakers speak and how there are no clear beginnings and ends to distinct words and omg, how do they understand one another??? (I confess to be guilty of that myself, especially with Indonesian. )
6 x
Note from an educator and former ESL/test skills tutor: Any learner, including self-learners, can use the CEFR for self-assessment. The CEFR is for helping learners progress and not for gatekeeping and bullying.
Cèid Donn wrote:I think what is more of a hurdle for native English and German speakers is listening comprehension of syllable-timed languages. This is usually where you get people whining about how fast native speakers speak and how there are no clear beginnings and ends to distinct words and omg, how do they understand one another??? (I confess to be guilty of that myself, especially with Indonesian. )
I personally believe that the only way around that is to learn to do it. Once you can do it, you'll be able to recognise it when you hear it.
Cèid Donn wrote:I am unsure what you mean by "fixing it"? Do you mean improving the L2 speaker's English prosody? I think it's an issue that really only needs to be address if the L2 speaker is having difficulty with being understood, which for most of the L2 speakers I encounter here in on the US-MX border isn't that big of an issue, if their pronunciation of English words is otherwise good, because of the cultural familiarity between speakers here. But yes, it can be improved. I have known many Latin Americans who worked very hard to develop a more natural English prosody (this seems most common among younger Latin Americans, in my experience), through a lot of listening, practicing and having native English speakers correct them.
Yes, I meant improving it. I was never aware of the stress time vs. syllable time languages until a few days ago. I realize now that language learners are aware of this dichotomy and take action and apply it early on. First, I need to understand the "stress-time" language prosody. I don't know how native English speakers contract the vowels of connecting words to stress the consonants of the main words as they speak. For us who are natives, Spanish speakers, using the syllable time, I think it indicates that we give the same length of time to each syllable, and we do not stress the main words over the short functional words. Thanks for taking the time to respond. You make interesting points.
mentecuerpo wrote:I was never aware of the stress time vs. syllable time languages until a few days ago. I realize now that language learners are aware of this dichotomy and take action and apply it early on.
Most are not aware of it, hence why it's a problem.
For us who are natives, Spanish speakers, using the syllable time, I think it indicates that we give the same length of time to each syllable, and we do not stress the main words over the short functional words.
You do stress the main ones. It's just that it doesn't sound that way to someone whose native language links timing to stress.
A slightly different matter is that English is unusual in how much it uses vocal stress to highlight important things. Most languages in Europe use repetition, adding an extra word or moving of the highlighted element.
eg. soy el rey (normal) el rey soy yo (emphatic) but English I'm the king vs I'm the king.
German uses word order for emphasis, so that's not a problem you need to worry about this time round..
)