Hitting the language wall again

[alans]

My target language is Yiddish. I attended my fourth intensive language program this past summer and it was awful. A lot of travel
and money put to waste. I was auditing intermediate Yiddish at the university but I have just dropped it because I found the pace,
even as a non-credit student was too fast. I take weekly one hour lessons with an amazing private teacher-I've been with her for
four years and if it wasn't for her I would have quit years ago. But I'm sixty now and I just don't know how to continue on. My reading
has improved but I can barely speak (not that there is anyone to speak with)and I'm so tired of grammar that just the thought of
it makes me want to scream. Originally my plan was to pursue a graduate degree in Yiddish but I don't see the point anymore. I'm
tired and I just don't know what the point of studying is anymore. A good friend of mine who has taught ESL for years told me to
stop comparing myself to other people-just work along and I will get where I need to get when I get there. But I never feel like
I'm making much progress-there is endless amounts of vocabulary to always learn and grammar (!) and I just don't know how to
continue.
I guess by coming to this forum and posing this questions means my heart is still in it-but I just don't feel like I'm getting ahead and
I'm worn out from trying.

[Xenops]

Maybe you only need a break?

I have been focusing on Japanese this past several months, and now I feel burnt out--even with a trip to Japan in 11 days. I tried to jam as much as I could, but I have to realize that:

1. Japanese is very opaque to me, as an English native.
2. I'm not in a race for time--I rather learn the basics really well than to speed through material and not know a whole lot.
3. I still know way more Japanese than my last trip 8 years ago. And I'll know even more the next time I visit. Now I can find my way out of the airport.

Be yourself--everyone else is taken.
~ Oscar Wilde

[rdearman]

You don't have to perfect, just better than you were yesterday.

[lavengro]

You will undoubtedly get more seasoned advice from some of the more seasoned learners on the site, but for what it may be worth, I would suggest forcing yourself to put a complete stop to your study for a set period of time. Perhaps for one month to test for effect, but perhaps not longer than three months to avoid skill delay.*

If at the end of your pre-determined period, you are sleeping easier, feeling better about life, re-invigorated about the future, then never return and count yourself lucky for successfully escaping. (Personally, given that you indicate you live in Toronto, I expect you will instead just find yourself in three months to be freezing cold and overly-fatigued from snow-shoveling.)

You may find, however, that you have been itching irresistibly to return to studying, in which case sorry you're stuck.


*When I previously went through language learning doubts, I took a break of over four years between my manifestation on the htlal forum and picking things up again on this site, and this resulted in significant loss of progress, especially to my ASL efforts. I have restarted this month with ASL, but am down to only one sign, and that one just generates hostility.

[Speakeasy]

We learn through pain!
alans, I feel your pain! You stepped into the ring with a sparring partner who taught you that size, weight, arm length, strength, endurance, a solid foundation based on good instruction, training, practice, coupled with self-confidence and a healthy dose of mental preparation are not guarantors of success. So, you feel a little bruised and battered. But, what a learning experience!

Pros
• You learned that, either the administrators of this programme should have vetted the participants through a rigorous placement exam or they did make such an attempt and either the exam was not up to the task or, by a fluke, the exam tested areas where you just happen to be strong, or you skills going into the course were sufficient, although perhaps borderline, and that a myriad of other factors played a role of which you are not yet away. Next time, scout your sparring partner beforehand; can you really take this guy down?
• Whether or not the selection process was valid, you had already taken on the challenge of learning an FSI Category 4 Language and had acquired a linguistic competency of something in the CEFR A2 area. That’s quite an accomplishment!
• You dispelled the myth that achieving CEFR B2 is a piece of cake, particularly through courses/classes alone (actually, it’s not really really myth, the problem is that dragons await you around every corner).
• You probably learned that well-designed Intermediate courses assume that the student has developed an entry-level facility with the spoken language, its structure, and what-I-would-call “transactional” vocabulary necessary for communicating one’s basic needs. However, in my opinion, this is NOT “conversational” ability which requires the knowledge of a greater vocabulary and familiarity with idiomatic speech, plus a higher degree of fluency. The objective of well-designed Intermediate courses is to drag the poor student, kicking-and-screaming, into the uncomfortable world of dealing with massive amounts of new vocabulary, idiomatic speech, more complex sentence structures and the demands of being able to analyze texts and conversation and of expressing oneself accurately, quickly, and with confidence. Whew! Hey, this is prize fighting!
• You travelled to a destination that I assume you would have for the purpose of vacation. While you likely spent your days in the classroom, you took the time to explore the area a little and were favourably impressed. You want to return!
• As you audited the course, you will not been assigned the penalty of losing credits for want of successful completion.
• Despite your present feelings of dejection, through your mere attendance at this course, you activated your L2 much more than you realize. I strongly believe that you have improved, admittedly not to the level you had anticipated, but you have definitely made progress.
• Overall, this was an enriching experience. You learned much and you are to be congratulated for having had the courage to step into the ring. The money was well-spent!

Cons
• For the life of me, I can’t think of any.

Anecdote Time
About thirty years ago, at my request, my employer transferred me to a small company town in the heart of Quebec, a locale where virtually no one spoke English. I had a very rusty knowledge of French which was based mostly on a two- years high school French grammar course some 25 years previously. On top the bargain, the province’s language laws stipulated that I had to successfully sit a CEFR B2 French exam within one year of my arrival and that failure of the exam would mean that my professional order would be required, by law, to revoke my standing as a full member, thereby forcing my employer to review my employment contract. I had no opportunity to take French language classes (the local community college did offer to enrol me in their evening study Spanish classes). My only source of material support was a bilingual dictionary. A year later, I sat the exam with a score of 94 percent. What happened?

Well, it’s all a bit of blur now, but I suspect that the foundation that I built in French grammar provided much more support than I had anticipated. I distinctly remembering thinking to myself, in the midst of an on-going conversation, of French verb conjugations and the language's basic sentence structure and slowly, painfully, building sentences in my mind in an effort to keep up with my interlocutors. So, the foundation that you have already acquired will “be there for you” in the future. Just keep pluggin’ along!

While I did not benefit from formal instruction, recourse to language-learning materials, or coaching/tutoring, my “full immersion” experience lacked the intensity of your “intensive” language course. When I think about it now, my full immersion experience was actually very nicely paced. I would step out of my office, where I would be attending to my own duties, go and see my colleagues, and engage in a series of four-way discussions which often lasted no more than 5 minutes each, and then return to my office. This happened numerous times throughout the day: rest plus mental preparation for what I wanted to discuss, very intensive linguistic activity, followed by rest and recuperation. On-off, on-off, on-off. Although I found the discussions very demanding, over time, they became less so (the coffee breaks were much worse, but for very different reasons).

Get back into the ring!
Based on my experience, I find myself wondering whether or not you might benefit from short tutoring sessions in your L2. Prepare yourself, step into the ring and box like a devil, then rest and recuperate. Go at it again later (same day, next day, whatever seems most appropriate to you). Pace yourself!

All-in-all, I think you have benefited much more than you realize right now. The problem with life is that it gives us the experience and then teaches us the lesson. Keep your arms up and close to your body, your chin down, and your eyes focused on the center of his body mass (he ain’t goin’ anywhere without it!). Oh, and scout your sparring partner beforehand.

[Deinonysus]

Sorry to hear that the Yiddish course didn't work out!

You may want to take a break from Yiddish and dabble in something else for a little while.

Do you have any interest in German? You will probably have a very easy time with it because of your background in Yiddish, and there are a lot more resources for German than for Yiddish. If you do spend some time working on German, you will probably find that a lot of it transfers back over to Yiddish. I think I have mentioned this to you before but I am able to understand Yiddish quite well because of my level of German, even though I have barely studied Yiddish at all. The reverse is probably also true.

I can think of some other languages as well where some dabbling might help you with Yiddish:

Esperanto is a great confidence booster and very easy for speakers of English or Romance languages to learn. Although Yiddish was not a source language for Esperanto, its creator, L. L. Zamenhof, was a Polish Jew who spoke Yiddish natively so there could be some influence. It has two cases, Accusative and non-Accusative, so that could help you get more comfortable with cases. Accusative words simply have an "n" added to the end.

Romanian is Romance so it shares much more vocabulary with English than Yiddish does. It has a simple case system.

Norwegian (or Danish or Swedish) has very similar syntax to English and no cases or conjugation, and has a lot of Germanic vocabulary that can help you with Yiddish.

Dutch has no cases but has syntax that is similar to German and Yiddish, and will also teach you a lot of Germanic vocabulary.

Afrikaans is like Dutch but with no conjugation. There are better resources for Dutch than for Afrikaans though.

Edit: I forgot to add the obvious:

Hebrew. You already know the script and some vocabulary. Standard Hebrew pronunciation should be very easy for a Yiddish speaker. Also, Hebrew grammar will probably make you think: maybe Yiddish grammar isn't that bad after all...

Edit2: I also forgot to add: there's a pretty active Yiddish community on Reddit. You may want to check out.

http://reddit.com/r/yiddish

[iguanamon]

I remember when you were on here talking about doing this course and how excited you were. A lot of people get suckered by language course/school hype. You aren't the first one and definitely won't be the last to be taken in by hype. Just don't fall for it again.

Good advice has already been given. As to learning Yiddish: I have self-learned a Jewish language and how to read in Hebrew script- Ladino/Djudeo Espanyol. I too have no one to talk to as Ladino is a dying language with fewer than 70,000 native-speakers left- none of them monolingual. I have had written interaction with native-speakers through email and social media. I'm not even Jewish.

You have a more fortunate situation with Yiddish living in Toronto than I do with Ladino living in the Caribbean. There are native-speakers and those who have learned it as a second language. Yiddish is supported very well on the web with the Yiddish Book Center which has text and even audio-books (recorded in Montreal).

The thing about our forum is that it is for self-learners. Some of us here have tutors but most of us do not. I have used tutors in the past. I just didn't use them to teach me the language but to consolidate what I learned on my own and advance through conversation with a knowledgeable, experienced language professional. There is an Assimil Yiddish course available for sale in both French and English base. There is also a Colloquial Yiddish course and several other Yiddish courses on the market. Keep your tutor, just don't depend on her to do everything for you in learning the language. You can get pretty far on your own.

The tried and true path here that I have done (with many variations possible):
Get a course or two
Do the course(s)
Gradually expose yourself to native resources (but don't overwhelm yourself by trying to swallow the whole megillah!)
Use a tutor/language exchange partner (not really possible with Yiddish) to help you consolidate and advance your skills)
Read, Read, Read
Listen, Listen, Listen
Write (even if only to yourself)
Speak (even if only with yourself)
Get active in social media (it can lead to more resources, people, even friends with whom you can use the language)
Don't give up.

Please don't beat yourself up for the cost and time you spent on an "intensive" language program. That's gone. I hope you will choose to continue. It's doable. We prove that here everyday. I was more fortunate than you in learning Ladino because I already knew Spanish and Portuguese (closely related languages) to a high level. Yiddish is more closely related to German, which you don't speak. Still, with a couple of courses and all the native materials out there, you can learn this language to a decent level on your own with help from your tutor. We can help you with advice about how to learn a language on your own, if you are willing.

[Cavesa]

How about creating some artificial milestones? It works really nicely for many people with the feeling of being stuck on an endless plateau. It is possible to create smaller challenges for yourself and savour every achievement. They need to be easy enough to visualise/count, and they need to lead in the right direction. That's it. I'd also recommend to make them either short term, for start, or without time being the most significant component. At least until you feel a bit better about your Yiddish studies.

This is also the principle behind some of the successful challenges in this community. The Super Challenge is all about counting how much you read and listen to stuff in the language. Trust me, hitting 10000 book pages felt awesome and the improvement was significant. The whole path to that goal was very motivating! Or completing a coursebook can be a similar achievement. No need to worry about the bigger picture for a moment, you'll just savour having completed all the units. Some people are also great at challenges making them produce something, or to spend a certain time learning every day. Iguanamon's advice is excellent, he wrote a great overview of what needs to be done. Vast majority of those steps can be chopped into manageable pieces.

There are many options. Pick something you like, something you know will be a step in the right direction (but don't worry about the overall length of the journey right now), and something that will make you feel proud of yourself! Your ego obviously needs a little boost. If you start a log, we'll all help, by absolutely honestly cheering for you and admiring every piece of achievement! It might sound stupid (we are usually taught to be humble and not to boast), but I personally find nothing wrong about this. It is ok in this community. Unlike most people, we know how hard you need to work for every bit of progress.

Yes, there is some logic in the advice to give up on something that doesn't make you happy. But I don't think giving up will help. What I read in your post is not primarily a problem with Yiddish. It is a problem with your confidence after some harsh blows, and it is also frustration caused by a much longer and slower and less clear path than you had probably expected.

[alans]

I thank-you all for your responses-it gives me hope on this not very hopeful day. I think I need a break as I've been obsessed with
trying to get as far as I can in as little time as possible. I think I spend too much time looking toward some imaginary end-goal....one
day I will have reached the goal and that will be that. But someone once said learning a language is about the journey and not
the destination.
Your support has helped a great deal. My language course cost me an enormous amount of money and vacation time-never again.

[Cainntear]

It's worth noting that the brain continues to reorganise learned information for a while after you stop studying. If you're frustrated, it may well be that the brain just needs time to sort through all the poorly-tuned data it has received to date. I think the rule of thumb is that about a month is usually the ideal, and lavengro was pretty spot on in saying not longer than 3 months, because after that you start to forget again.

It may seem odd to go away from something then come back and know things that you didn't really know when you stopped, but it's a real effect.

There was also a suggestion of swapping to another language, which can also help you sort your brain out... if the language is taught well. The process of successfully learning a language is helpful, but if the process is just as painful as the current one, it will equally jam up your brain.