jonm wrote:Interesting. I'm surprised that the indicative is even an option here. My understanding is that para que always takes the subjunctive, because the event or situation in the subordinate clause introduced by para que hasn't happened yet (or hadn't happened yet, if the sentence is in the past).
Para que always takes the subjunctive, yes.
The thing to bear in mind is that "grammar rules" are not rules, they're patterns, tendencies, predilections, guides. In the end, we always find ourselves learning how the "rules" apply word by word.
For example, the demonstrative pronoun "this" can't normally be used to refer to a human, unless the human is treated like an object, as an insult. "Did I just make such a long trip just to see
this? (pointing to a person)". But there is an exception tied to a particular syntactic construction: "this" can refer to a human with no insult expressed
if it's the subject of the verb "to be", e.g. "this is my father-in-law", "this is such a cute baby!". The "rule" that English demonstratives don't refer to people except as insults is good to know, but so is the exception.
So in the sentence in question...
Éste es un vídeo para que os pongáis un poco de fondo mientras os depiléis los huevos o estéis jugando ahí tranquilamente al Fortnite.
..."pongáis" can only be in the subjunctive, but I would have thought "depiléis" and "estéis" could only be in the subjunctive as well, since all three verbs refer to events that would hypothetically be happening at the same time but haven't happened yet (and may well never happen). Is that not true? Here the subordinate clause that begins with mientras is contained within the subordinate clause that begins with para que, and I would have thought the whole thing, the entire imagined scenario, would have to be in the subjunctive.
Even in a sentence where the events that haven't happened yet aren't just hypothetical examples but are actually expected to happen, I would have thought the subjunctive would be required. For example...
Sé que vais a jugar Fortnite esta noche, y grabo este vídeo para que os pongáis un poco de fondo mientras estéis jugando.
Sé que vais a jugar Fortnite esta noche, y grabo este vídeo para que os pongáis un poco de fondo mientras estáis jugando.
My understanding is that only the first version is correct. Is the second version possible too?
I would personally have no problem with
para que os pongáis un poco de fondo mientras os depiláis los huevos o estáis jugando ahí tranquilamente al Fortnite, with subjunctive
pongáis but indicative
depiláis and
estáis.
I'm sure that if you ask this around to other native speakers you'll find some who'll prefer the subjunctive though, especially if you discuss your hypothesis first. If you just show them the sentence with indicative
depiláis/estáis, I suspect most won't have a problem with it either.
For context, this is from my reference grammar...
A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish, 5th ed. wrote:Subordinators are words like ‘before’, ‘after’, ‘provided that’, ‘because’, ‘when’, ‘unless’, which introduce subordinate clauses. The general rule governing the use of the subjunctive after subordinators is: if the event referred to has or had occurred, the verb is in the indicative; if the event has or had not yet occurred, the verb is in the subjunctive. [...] It follows from this that a few subordinators, e.g. antes de que ‘before’, para que/a que ‘in order that’, always take the subjunctive because they must refer to something that has or had not yet happened.
Yeah, that's the tendency, but as usual there are exceptions. Your grammar actually agrees with me when it comes to
mientras:
(iv) Mientras ‘as long as’/‘while’ is variable with respect to the subjunctive. [...] When it refers to simultaneous actions in the future, the subjunctive or indicative can be used: mañana puedes hacer la comida mientras (que) yo arreglo/arregle la casa ‘tomorrow you can do the cooking while I tidy the house’.
Butt, John; Benjamin, Carmen. A New Reference Grammar of Modern Spanish. 5th ed. 2011. Section 16.12.7.iv.
...Well, except that I draw a slight nuance between the use of the indicative and subjunctive here.
By the way, I agree that
antes de que always takes the subjunctive, just like
para que, and so does
a que when it means 'in order that' (
a que can take the indicative when it means 'I bet' though).
I would also like to mention that it is also entirely possible for grammar authors to make misjudgements regarding how appropriate certain constructions are. A Spanish professor from a university in France once published
an amusing article regarding published grammars and textbooks and the Spanish subjunctive with words of emotion. Apparently, many authors wrongly believe that the subjunctive has to be used in such contexts, but if you ask native Spanish speakers we often draw a distinction between indicative and subjunctive there, in a similar way to what I do regarding
mientras.