Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

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David27
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby David27 » Fri Jun 28, 2019 1:24 pm

As a learner of both, I agree with what others have posted above. The pros/cons that focus on number of speakers, difficulty, job opportunities etc. in the long run won't pan out, and in the long run you have to go with which culture you want to seek out and dive into, you'll be more successful with that language. It may be hard to pick one, maybe start with one, then later dabble in the other (but that will likely result in you, like me, being proficient in neither ;)) I'll share my story just as an example, maybe it will help... maybe not.

I started with Mandarin in 2012 when I was a medical student. I moved to NYC in 2011, and having learned Spanish to an intermediate B2 ish level at that time really paid off, and immediately was useful, and since there are several Mandarin communities spread out throughout NY, I thought it would be best to dive into Mandarin. At the time, I wanted to learn a non European language for a long term challenge and commitment. I initially wanted to learn Arabic, but the practicality of Mandarin here was greater, so I went for it (I'd still love to study Arabic some day, but I'm spread too thin as is). I was enthralled by the difficulties, not intimidated, and I wanted to see how well I would fare with the writing system, the tones, the history, and a language and culture that is completely foreign to me. I started with a free beginner Mandarin course for students that met 1 hour once a week for 8 weeks, and I bought the Assimil Mandarin with Ease, Pimsleur I-III, and watched "growing up with Chinese" (eventually that got slow and boring, never got through that), later on I also listened to all beginner podcasts released by popupchinese, which are humourous and fun, not always the most practical language but since they were often funny (to my sense of humor), vocabulary seemed to stick. I also did other things from time to time. Granted I have been busy, but that is what I have gotten through since 2012, I put in somewhere over 500 hours (probably in the range of 700 if I had to guess), and I would say I am an advanced beginner. I can have a tutor session for an hour and have it be mostly in elementary Mandarin, I can read basic things for beginners, but any true real-life use of the language still escapes me. There is some practical use, I know enough Mandarin that I can introduce myself well to patients, do a physical exam when away from the interpreter phone at the hospital, and give basic instructions (your medicine is at the pharmacy, you need to have your blood drawn now, go to clinic blah blah for radiology) that I have learned, but for all true conversations I rely 100% on interpreter services. I honestly have not found Chinese media that I can say I enjoy to just passively get more exposure to the language, and I still have to force myself to study. I do this more out of love for language learning, which sometimes can feel like a chore, but I am in a habit of doing it, so that helps me to continue my slow climb up Everest.

I never had a cultural interest in Japan growing up. I wasn't opposed to it, and if I had more exposure, I likely would have enjoyed it, it just wasn't on my radar. I also knew no Japanese people, I grew up in Iowa, didn't have much exposure to Japanese culture or cuisine, so I never thought to study the language, hence my first choice of Mandarin. In 2014, I lived with 3 other students in an apartment, and since I was interested in languages, one of my roommates who loved everything Japanese, said he would like to learn Japanese, and started with Pimsleur I-III. He quickly got bored, but I used the opportunity to download to my ipod all the lessons, and I bought a Colloquial Japanese book (I went through this twice since then, and listened to hundreds of hours of Japanese101 podcasts while out and about, walking my dog, also doing LingQ and other internet resources, watching Japanese shows and looking up words and expressions). Since the opportunity happened to present itself with the Pimsleur course, I took it and dove in, not thinking logically about how this will eat into my time for Mandarin. There is such a community of people learning Japanese, and so many outlets online, media, meetups, all focused on Japanese, that it was easier to get caught up in the excitement of Japanese than Mandarin. My girlfriend (now wife), also mentioned that she would be interested in visiting Japan some day, but less interested to go to China... Ok, good enough reason for me to dive into Japanese. After having studied (again I have been busy, so I haven't been able to obsessively study, but consistently) for 2 years I booked a trip and spent a little over a week in Japan in Spring of 2017, and was surprised to find that my basic Japanese was useful and able to get me through simple conversations and situations at the train stations, hotels, and restaurants. Japanese workers and people I met were often thrilled with even my basic Japanese, and didn't just switch to English on me. The culture just drew me in. I love the levels of formality, the ceremoniousness of the culture, the pride in their work, the artistry even in simple, every day things. Not to say I don't also see some negative aspects. Like all cultures, it has it's advantages and disadvantages, but I was taken in by it all. When I came back to the USA I was further motivated, and found it easy to find recommendations for more Japanese media, readily available shows with English subtitles (still not good enough to understand without subtitles), movies, music (even though I still haven't really gotten into the music). I've developed a love for Japanese food, and this constant thinking about Japanese and enjoying the culture, watching shows, going to Japanese restaurants, etc is a stronger motivator for me than my practical pressure to learn Mandarin, so it's easier for me to spend almost twice as much time on Japanese as I do on Mandarin, and so my Japanese has caught up, and I believe it has surpassed my abilities in Mandarin, even though there is no 'practical' use for the language here in NY. I just enjoy it more (for now... hopefully someday I'll go to China, have a similar experience, find Chinese media that I enjoy etc, it just hasn't happened yet for me).

I don't regret studying Chinese, I also don't regret that my level is still just advanced beginner-lower intermediate in both despite years 'studying' both languages. If you would rather dive into one, and don't want to end up like me, my suggestion is to follow the one that you think you will be more culturally invested in, and ignore any other reason, because that will be the stronger motivator long term for study than any practical reasons.
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thevagrant88
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby thevagrant88 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 9:01 am

白田龍 wrote:+Tones are easy to master.


This is one of those phrases that I see people say on the internet that drives me crazy because I have no idea what this means. Are you saying learning how to pronounce the tones in isolation is easy? That tone sandhi is easy? That being able to identify exactly which tones a native speaker is using in rapid speech? Maybe learning how to say the shapes of the individual tones isn't too bad, but it gets significantly harder as you start to deal with words that, to non-tonal language speaks, would sound like homophones. It's also difficult to learn how to use intonation while adhering to the tone rules. Then when you consider that Mandarin's four/five tones are much more difficult to distinguish in rapid speech than some other tonal languages, then forget it.

In short, I've never met somebody who achieved a high level of Chinese who said tones were not a problem throughout the entire learning process. Who I have met are a lot of people who've run through Chinese Pimsleur or Assimil and think they got it figured out. It's absolutely not, 'easy to master'.
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白田龍
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby 白田龍 » Sat Jun 29, 2019 11:23 am

Sorry it went without saying that tones were easy from my own experience as a learner, as a noobie it seemed hard, but it sorted itself efortlessly after a ton of listening. Other ppl experieces probably should vary wildly though.
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learningchayse
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby learningchayse » Sun Jun 30, 2019 4:32 am

devalike wrote:Japanese
+The language sounds so poetic and powerful. I am a theatrical and intense communicator. Japanese is such a beautiful language to communicate emotion with.


Wait. What? Why? Why is this the pro for Japanese rather than Chinese? I am just curious because to me poetic prose is one of the biggest features of Chinese.
But it is a personal feeling so...

Anyway, a popular piece for your reference. It is a textbook pick which means most of the K12 students could recite at least part of it. You could feel the cadence if you know Chinese tones.

《再别康桥》(徐志摩)
轻轻的我走了,正如我轻轻的来;
我轻轻的招手,作别西天的云彩。
那河畔的金柳,是夕阳中的新娘;
波光里的艳影,在我的心头荡漾。
软泥上的青荇,油油的在水底招摇;
在康河的柔波里,我甘心做一条水草!
那榆荫下的一潭,不是清泉,是天上虹揉碎在浮藻间,沉淀着彩虹似的梦。
寻梦?撑一支长蒿,向青草更青处漫溯,
满载一船星辉,在星辉斑斓里放歌。
但我不能放歌,悄悄是别离的笙箫;
夏虫也为我沉默,沉默是今晚的康桥!
悄悄的我走了,正如我悄悄的来;
我挥一挥衣袖,不带走一片云彩。
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby devilyoudont » Sun Jun 30, 2019 2:32 pm

learningchayse wrote:
devalike wrote:Japanese
+The language sounds so poetic and powerful. I am a theatrical and intense communicator. Japanese is such a beautiful language to communicate emotion with.


Wait. What? Why? Why is this the pro for Japanese rather than Chinese? I am just curious because to me poetic prose is one of the biggest features of Chinese.
But it is a personal feeling so...

Anyway, a popular piece for your reference. It is a textbook pick which means most of the K12 students could recite at least part of it. You could feel the cadence if you know Chinese tones.

《再别康桥》(徐志摩)
轻轻的我走了,正如我轻轻的来;
我轻轻的招手,作别西天的云彩。
那河畔的金柳,是夕阳中的新娘;
波光里的艳影,在我的心头荡漾。
软泥上的青荇,油油的在水底招摇;
在康河的柔波里,我甘心做一条水草!
那榆荫下的一潭,不是清泉,是天上虹揉碎在浮藻间,沉淀着彩虹似的梦。
寻梦?撑一支长蒿,向青草更青处漫溯,
满载一船星辉,在星辉斑斓里放歌。
但我不能放歌,悄悄是别离的笙箫;
夏虫也为我沉默,沉默是今晚的康桥!
悄悄的我走了,正如我悄悄的来;
我挥一挥衣袖,不带走一片云彩。


Would you happen to have a link to a native speaker reciting it well? I'm just curious.

Whatever language you think sounds beautiful is of course completely subjective. I love the sound of Japanese, but in my opinion the most beautiful language I've ever heard is somehow Greenlandic.
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Flickserve
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby Flickserve » Mon Jul 01, 2019 1:12 am

白田龍 wrote:Sorry it went without saying that tones were easy from my own experience as a learner, as a noobie it seemed hard, but it sorted itself efortlessly after a ton of listening. Other ppl experieces probably should vary wildly though.

LOL. A ton of listening doesn't equate to being easy.
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby cathrynm » Mon Jul 01, 2019 2:17 am

devalike wrote:-Oh boy is it hard. Kanji, not being native to the Japanese had to be adjusted to match their own words and they became overloaded with several different readings for each character. This is not only an increase in difficulty, it also renders the listener unable to connect words of the same root quite often (e.g 水 is "mizu" = water, but 水 is "sui" in 水力 = hydropower).


I think mostly this isn't as bad as it seems. It becomes pretty clear pretty early from grammar whether kanji are meant to be used as kun/on. I'm the 'eternal lower-intermediate' student of Japanese and I don't make this mistake.

To me, you're basically correct hereas far as complex sentences. Sometimes the verb at the end, can change the entire meaning of what came before it. With complex clauses the order can be quite confusing.

As far as honorifics, and why they are so important, I attribute honorifics historically to fuedalism and continuing into modern times due to retail.
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby devalike » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:23 am

Everyone, thanks for the insightful replies!
Well the thing is that Im a computer science student and I constantly hear how Shanghai is going to be the next Tokyo of AI/technology so Mandarin might be of use. But I prefer Japanese media/arts and the sound of it. The listening comprehension of mandarin is hard for me, I insist. I never actually hear the 是不是 i see in the subs below, it's too subtle (trust me, I have trouble with listening comprehension even in my native language :lol: ).
Hopefully Japanese will get easier once you get past the major obstacles (keigo, particles, honorifics).
I will practice it for the time being.
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Inst
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby Inst » Mon Jul 01, 2019 12:10 pm

The community of Japanese learners is better developed and has better support elements than the community of Mandarin learners. But at the same time, Japanese is sort of played out, and it's supposed to be considerably more difficult for English speakers than Mandarin. Likewise, why not both? I.e, go to Mandarin, get high proficiency in it, then go to Japanese which is grammatically more difficult, but many of its graphs are already included in Chinese and retain the same or similar meanings.

The most important thing, though, is that both Chinese and Japanese are extremely hard languages. If you really don't have a sincere interest in Mandarin, you'll burn out around B1 (HSK4), and it'll just be abandonware. If you have a sincere interest in Japanese (J-Pop, Japanese lit, Anime, Manga), you'll be more likely to achieve proficiency (C1/C2 JLPT N1) than you would with Mandarin, and the relationship between Japanese and Mandarin is roughly that of German and French, different language families, different grammar, but loan words and partially shared orthographies (Japanese is on Shinjitai simplication, Mandarin is mostly on Jiantizi simplification, but there's overlap).
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Re: Focus on Japanese or Mandarin?

Postby Dragon27 » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:54 pm

Inst wrote:the relationship between Japanese and Mandarin is roughly that of German and French, different language families, different grammar, but loan words and partially shared orthographies

German and French are still the same language family (just different branches), and their structures are not that different from each other in comparison. How about, I don't know, Arabic and Persian?
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