If you had 3 hours a day, could you advance ‘well’ in 6 or 7 languages?

[PeterMollenburg]

I’ll base this on me. Native language = EN. Strongest foreign language = FR (level between B2-C1). I’ve recently restarted Dutch (previously reached B1).

Objectives:
• I’d like to advance my French to C2 and beyond
• Dutch to C1
• Spanish to B2 or beyond
• German: B2 or beyond
• Norwegian: B2 or beyond
• Russian: B2 or beyond
• Arabic: B2

Is this theoretically achievable, in your opinion, based on 3 hours total study time per day (for very many years if required, let’s say 10 years for arguments sake)?
....

Practically-speaking it sounds very challenging because of, well, life being inconvenient sometimes, but theoretically it should be easy-sneasy. Perhaps too easy-sneasy: for someone like you who has already demonstrated commitment over the long term and success with French, if you don't mind some mild criticism, I think you are wimping out a bit in your language choices.

Spanish is just like French but with more gusto and less baguettes, and while I have no basis for saying this at all, but aren't Dutch, German and Norwegian pretty much all exactly the same, except for a few weird squiggles here and there? Sure, Russian and Arabic may give some pause, but I get the sense you attack learning materials with enthusiasm, so you'll take it in your stride.

So how about manning up and substitute in Ithkuil for one of your languages? With 65 consonants, 17 vowels and a boustrophedon text system, it won't necessarily be easy (reportedly, no one, including the developer of this conlang himself, is known to be able to speak Ithkuil fluently), but the greater the challenge, the greater the glory.

https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ithkuil

If you ever do decide to establish the factory you mentioned and if you would be prepared to accept applications from less committed learners interested in a scaled-down challenge, I would readily sign up for a B1, five language, six year stint.

lavengro, dude, are you for realio? Dutch, German and Norwegian being pretty much all exactly the same Ummm, No. Yes, I see what you're saying, Dutch and German are rather close, but still they are labelled as separate languages for good reason. But I'll gladly learn these closely related languages and take the bonus of them being closely related, yes please

Anyway, this is thousands upon thousands of hours of learning, so I would absolutely not choose any languages that don't interest me, and it's not the challenge itself that interests me, it's the specific languages and their cultures that I'm curious about. Thus, Ithkuil with 65 consonants.... hmmm... walks away quietly as voice trails off into the distance.... 'what's that mum? You need me to go up the shop to get some milk and.... ok.... ....

[PeterMollenburg]

If your French truly is B2/C1, it won't fade. That's the point of that level.

Other than that, I agree with what has been said already. Focus is better.

Thanks tarvos for your vote on 'focus'

[PeterMollenburg]

What I also meant was that you need to end up consciously shifting your environment. A couple of examples that are, not actual study time, but effective in keeping languages active:

I attend language exchange events (there is one here once a week, I do not go very often now, but at one time was quite active.) It's a social in another language.

I speak with my daughters on the phone in ... something else than our strongest family language - so we each get some language work.

I listen to massive amounts of podcasts and music in other languages but passively - not studying, this is just the background environment.

When I surf, I try to read in German rather than English, etc... But I'm not reading for learning and I make an effort to not make it a learning task.

I'm really talking about changing passive language habits, so that the environment is less in English... (although I tried to do that with my GPS and my computer and that did NOT last...)

If I could vote for zenmonkey's post a thousand times, I would. It really isn't that much of an effort. I get a lot of my news in Spanish, Portuguese and Haitian Creole. I read in all my languages everyday by checking twitter in my down time. Twitter can be a great resource. Once you've curated a feed well, there's almost always something interesting to read at hand. Smart phones can hold podcasts and pdf's, youtube subscriptions, ebooks and music that are available at a touch whenever there's an opportunity for taking advantage of idle time.

Consciously shifting my environment means I have had to make some sacrifices- I rarely read in English these days. Most of the music and a lot of the international news I listen to is in a language other than English. Even with a busy life, it is still possible to incorporate a lot of language into it with "hidden moments". Becoming an early riser has been a huge benefit to me in language-learning.

In fact, I would go so far to say that it is critical for any learner who wishes to advance in a language to consciously shift their environment to include TL's. We're lucky these days to have the tools to be able to do this easily and enjoyably.

Some people might say that changing your phone or computer to another language isn't a big boost, but honestly I think it can have subtle effects you don't realize. I'll readily admit that my eyes glaze over and I do a lot of skipping around and blindly tapping when I use my phone in Chinese. But my phone's been in Chinese for like six months, and it's definitely made me more comfortable with a ton of words I otherwise wouldn't get practice for.

First, lots of phones these days will give you a little news feed or collection of stories you might find interesting. That'll change based on your phone's language, so it doesn't even become a conscious effort to have TL material delivered to you.

Second, you'll learn a lot of vocabulary that natives know but you'd probably never come across otherwise: file, copy, paste, select all, search, scan, and so on, not to mention the names of all the tools on your phone like camera, gallery/album, keyboard, calculator, voice recorder. No operating system uses obscure words for those. The word for the calculator on your phone is the same as the word for a calculator on somebody's desk.

Lastly, you don't have to go the whole hog. For me, Windows is in English, Photoshop is in English, Audition is in German, and Premiere is in Spanish.

I think the biggest difference is that when you change your Google language, it also changes the search results you get to mostly be in your TL.

Anyway, it seems Zenmonkey and I have different definitions of studying. What do you considering studying? Sitting down with a book? I'd consider all the examples in that post studying and more.

Hmmmm.....

I'm not really sure if all this was aimed at me specifically. I suspect it's more for a general audience, in that it's advice for those who want to progress seriously in a language or two or however many, to ensure their lives adapt to the language. Well, I couldn't agree more, and in fact I have most certainly being doing this for several years now-

*My iphone has been in French for years.
*My GPS bike computer is in French
*I use Google maps and Apple maps (sometimes with audio sometimes not) in French.
*I use google.fr
*My antivirus software default language is French, and any other programs that have languages other than EN are in FR.
*I do not watch English news - so much so I didn't even know our country was holding elections very soon. I don't care for AU news. I soon hear about anything of any importance via work colleagues, friends and family and it's usually BS anyway. As for the elections I have no faith in the system AT ALL so I simply don't care.
*Any books I read, series I watch - French.
*If I'm at work and need to search something medical I search in French. If I cannot understand I will clarify with English before reverting back to French.
*If there is an English book I really want to read, I will NOT read it UNLESS it is available in French translation (I have been known to buy French translations of EN books I already own).
*In the car it's French podcasts, French language programs, French music.
*With the kids I NEVER speak English, I read them in languages other than English, I sing with them, I play with them, I watch TV with them - NEVER in English.
*I've recently change the operating system of my computer to French (I coudn't previously as it's only recently become my computer 100%).
*All my apps on my phone are in French wherever possible and I go out of my way to ensure they are French.
*Any updates to apps I do manually and 8/10 times I read about the updates if they are in French. If they are in English, I don't care most of the time.
*I read instructions on new toys, gadgets etc in French and only clarify if necessary with cross reference to English.
*My itunes account is French (and Dutch).
*My Netflix profile now is frequently changing between French and Dutch to get increased access to the languages.
*Any conspiracy content or alternative news (or absolutely anything) I read online is 99.9% of the time in French.
*Sometimes while kayaking or cycling I use my water-proof audio system or my bone-conducting headphones to hear even more French.
*I'm starting now to do the above activities in Dutch too.

So, if the above comments were aimed at me (I don't think they were, honestly), and I take no offence of course (I may be coming off that way), I just want to demonstrate that I am already doing everything I can in French.

The other thing is, the comments may have been made to point out that rather than focusing on set study times (like David1917 suggested too), that just converting your life to exist in French (or whatever language it is you're learning) is a preferred approach by many language learners. I cannot ONLY do this. My life is busy, i have to set aside strict times for focused learning as well. If I don't, it won't happen, simple, because there are many other activities that will suck away my time. I also get a lot out of focused study and strict routines. It works for me, but I do all the other things as well, as time permits.

[PeterMollenburg]

So I've come up with an idea for how to tackle the languages, based on the excellent feedback and my own ponderings.

So, I'll continue with French and Dutch only until not sure when...

Taking into account the bow-wave effect, and times of focused study, versus lengthier periods when attention may drop i'm considering this:

Dutch for 6 weeks
French for 6 weeks
Dutch for 6 weeks
French for 6 weeks
etc.

I would do my 6 weeks of Dutch focused study alongside the 6 week challenge. The 6 weeks of down-time between the challenges would be French time.

During the focused study period of 6 weeks focusing on a single language I would still engage in the other language via 30 minutes of reading to the children each day (30min French/30min Dutch reading to the children throughout all periods, ie regardless whether focusing on French or Dutch in the 6 week period), and TV would contain some degree of the other language as well, but much less than the language of focus.

The main area in which I would have more time on the language in focus is my stricter 'desk study time'. This would be all in the focus language. After 6 weeks it would swap to other language.

Any thoughts?

Of course, eventually I'd add other languages for focus, which ones, in which order, I can't say for sure, but I suspect Spanish and Norwegian and strong candidates, but this is a while off yet, so who knows in reality. Furthermore I may only be able to add one language at a time rotating it with French. eg. Dutch goes into maintenance mode, and I then introduce Spanish - 6 weeks Spanish, 6 weeks French, 6 weeks Spanish, 6 weeks French, while Dutch remains at 30 min day of just reading to the kids and some other random TV as well as speaking to the children in Dutch. Not sure if it would work, because the more languages I'm maintaining, as Speakeasy suggested, the trickier it gets. How would I possibly advance in Arabic if I'm maintaining 5 languages and still actively perfecting my French?

[tommus]

If your LLorg comments were all in French, you'd be C2 by now .

[PeterMollenburg]

If your LLorg comments were all in French, you'd be C2 by now .

Yes indeed. It’s my main English activity (the forum), that is outside of existing in an EN speaking country...

Had some spare time, thought I’d write a barrage of posts

[David1917]

You're not the only one to suggest fitting my languages into my life rather than a strict regime. I've been suggested to do this many times. It just does not work for me. If I do not set a routine, it won't happen. I'll piss-fart around with books, movies here and there and I won't actively try to improve that much. Furthermore, many other areas of life will take over. Thus I MUST set aside time for study. Still, I absolutely do make French a part of my daily activities outside of strict study time. I'd be mad not to, but I must also be strict. I didn't get from A2 to B2/C1 in French by being flexible. My life is busy, I set aside times when I could study, I studied hard AND introduced French into my daily living, and this is what got me there.

I understand that my suggestions overall do not fit your style, which is fine, but I do want to respond to/elaborate on this a bit more.

What I originally said was:

"I personally go through phases of a few weeks at a time where I'm super gung-ho on one language or another, before pushing it back into my rotation of just 30 min/day...maintain some discipline by making sure to hit each one each day, but allow yourself to be flexible. Fit the languages into your life, not your life around a strict study regimen."

I did not mean to abandon a routine altogether. Let's say you have your French 1 hour of reading, and devote the other 2 hours to Dutch every day for a period of weeks/months. But then you find out a Norwegian colleague/friend is coming to town. You'd like to have already learned enough Norwegian to speak casually with this person but, your study schedule mandates 2 hours of Dutch instead until you reach C1. Do you keep that, or do you switch it up for a few weeks and work on Norwegian? Thats what I mean. It all comes out in the wash if you maintain discipline, but it just might take a longer cycle than you expected.

[iguanamon]

...Not sure if it would work, because the more languages I'm maintaining, as Speakeasy suggested, the trickier it gets. How would I possibly advance in Arabic if I'm maintaining 5 languages and still actively perfecting my French?

Reality bumps into perfectionism and reality wins, usually. The more languages I learn, the more my time gets divided. New ones get less attention and don't reach as high a level. In my experience, having 4 languages at C levels is about my limit. The more I do this, the more I think leosmith is right with taking languages to B2. For what we do, living outside TL countries, B2 is good enough.

...I just want to demonstrate that I am already doing everything I can in French.

I know this, PM. My comments are for the community in general and especially new learners. Mass media consumption and "false immersion" will only take a learner so far. At some point, some kind of formal study is needed. Whether that is sitting at a desk or lying in bed in the morning and using my tablet, some analysis/study of the language and how it is manipulated is critical. How much analysis/study varies among learners from none to the overwhelming time with the language. After studying courses and grammar. I like to then work that stuff out as I go by reading, listening, writing and during that time, I get plenty of study in while I'm trying to figure out things... which is one of the reasons why I don't keep track of study time when I'm learning... I can't.

When you start learning multiple languages simultaneously, the "three hours desk time" will bump very quickly into reality. That's why, over the years, I've advised you to learn while using native materials. In this way, you can get both activities in and you may find that you will advance more quickly. Still, I know you are you.

The question in the air is can you replicate your same French-learning path (dedicated solely to French) to success with other languages? I have a feeling that something is going to have to give- either your perfectionism or your separation of study time and media time into distinct segments. If the two segments are combined, I find it takes less time and is more effective. YMMV! Again, you are you, PM, and you have been successful with your approach. I'm curious to see how you will evolve with learning more languages. You will find your own way that's right for you, of that I am certain. The good thing is that language maintenance, though time consuming, can be very enjoyable... which is why I do this in the first place- to enjoy what I can do with a language.

When emk said he learned French by watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and reading comics, he's right, but it can leave the false impression that he wasn't active in those activities. Probably many of us who follow a similar path leave that same false impression. There's a lot of work behind the scenes. Looking up a word or a phrase in a good dictionary exposes the learner to example sentences, synonyms and explanations which can lead to rabbit holes of further research. I may be wrong, but for me grammar study is more useful if I am being exposed to the language in the real world alongside studying the usage. One unknown phrase or word can send me into a flurry of research. For me, this type of "study" is rewarding and enjoyable. Others may not find it to be and that's ok. There are many paths to take.

[PeterMollenburg]

You're not the only one to suggest fitting my languages into my life rather than a strict regime. I've been suggested to do this many times. It just does not work for me. If I do not set a routine, it won't happen. I'll piss-fart around with books, movies here and there and I won't actively try to improve that much. Furthermore, many other areas of life will take over. Thus I MUST set aside time for study. Still, I absolutely do make French a part of my daily activities outside of strict study time. I'd be mad not to, but I must also be strict. I didn't get from A2 to B2/C1 in French by being flexible. My life is busy, I set aside times when I could study, I studied hard AND introduced French into my daily living, and this is what got me there.

I understand that my suggestions overall do not fit your style, which is fine, but I do want to respond to/elaborate on this a bit more.

What I originally said was:

"I personally go through phases of a few weeks at a time where I'm super gung-ho on one language or another, before pushing it back into my rotation of just 30 min/day...maintain some discipline by making sure to hit each one each day, but allow yourself to be flexible. Fit the languages into your life, not your life around a strict study regimen."

I did not mean to abandon a routine altogether. Let's say you have your French 1 hour of reading, and devote the other 2 hours to Dutch every day for a period of weeks/months. But then you find out a Norwegian colleague/friend is coming to town. You'd like to have already learned enough Norwegian to speak casually with this person but, your study schedule mandates 2 hours of Dutch instead until you reach C1. Do you keep that, or do you switch it up for a few weeks and work on Norwegian? Thats what I mean. It all comes out in the wash if you maintain discipline, but it just might take a longer cycle than you expected.

Thanks for the clarification, David1917. That makes more sense, now that you have clarified it. I think it's a very good suggestion, in fact. Still, I think it's too flexible for my rigid style that has brought me success in French. Although Iguanamon is correct in that I need to become more flexible/adaptable in my language learning and maintenance approach if I add more languages, I think for my focused study sessions I need to remain consistently strict. Still, I'm often stubborn initially to concepts that rock my little boat/mindset only to admit later after the idea has seeped into the wooden of my little boat, that the seemingly illogical in fact has a lot of merit and logic to it.

On that note, 30 minutes of chipping away at Arabic and/or Russian suddenly became possible in an alternative study plan which I'll mention in an upcoming post further outlining some possible study routines.

Edit: Forgot to mention on an unrelated matter- thanks for posting that Prof Arguelles video on Arabic (the distance between MSA and Arabic dialects etc) in the recent thread on learning MSA vs dialect by Baeticus (The "Arabic issue": MSA or dialect first?). I watched it all and found it very insightful. It helped clarify some things for me and break down some misconceptions.

Edited to add above text, then the author of the cited thread, the url, then title of the cited thread, oh and a missing bracket

[lavengro]

lavengro, dude, are you for realio?

Nope, not at all!