If you had 3 hours a day, could you advance ‘well’ in 6 or 7 languages?

[Cristian30]

Of course, you can if you use that time correctly. Hope you best!

[Serpent]

You seem much more motivated for French than for any other language. That's the biggest obstacle, imo.

[PeterMollenburg]

You seem much more motivated for French than for any other language. That's the biggest obstacle, imo.

It makes me think of your passion for Finnish. Has that prevented you from learning other languages?

I’m ‘more motivated’ with French because
1. I’ve not reached C2 yet.
2. It’s the only language on my list I’m aiming for C2 and even beyond.
3. It’s the only language I’m targeting translation and interpreting studies with.
4. It’s my first FL taken to B2+, so I don’t want it to deteriorate.
5. It’s a working family language so I want to keep improving as my kids grow up.
6. I doubt I could aim to live in not only francophone countries and maybe Flanders/the Netherlands, which are all a stretch for an entire family on a limited budget facing numerous obstacles, but also live in 6 other countries because I fall in love with their languages and culture. It might happen, and once upon a time I was determined to make it so, but I have to go with the flow of what’s in store for me in life and what my family want. Thus best to take the one to two languages to higher levels belonging to those areas I’m more likely to possibly work and live outside of Australia.

I think other languages do interest me as much, but I cannot afford to not push ahead/continue with FR for all of the above reasons. I doubt I can reach C2 and beyond in 6 other languages (with the time I have), and it may be a very inefficient use of time to do so, so I have to settle for B2 being good enough for most of them. Still, your comments could be correct.

[PeterMollenburg]

Of course, you can if you use that time correctly. Hope you best!

I absolutely agree, which is why started this thread to get a gauge of whether this is possible and if so, how others recommend proceding.

[PeterMollenburg]

...Not sure if it would work, because the more languages I'm maintaining, as Speakeasy suggested, the trickier it gets. How would I possibly advance in Arabic if I'm maintaining 5 languages and still actively perfecting my French?

Reality bumps into perfectionism and reality wins, usually.

I completely understand. Without perfectionism however, I would not have reached my currentblevel of French - not because it’s not possible, but because as me it was not possible any other way. And perhaps this is what Serpent is suggesting, as well as your reality vs perfectionism comments. So maybe this project is certainly possible but not for me, the way I am and how my track record demonstrates that I learn.

Still, I don’t expect to be as picky with pronunciation as I have been with French with other languages, simply because I believe other languages (or in my experience at least German, Spanish and Dutch - I haven’t attempted any Russian, Arabic or Norwegian beyond a few words) won’t be as hard to attain decent pronunciation. Furthermore, I’ve learned how to learn with French and this will improve with other languages, which equates to time savings.

The more languages I learn, the more my time gets divided. New ones get less attention and don't reach as high a level. In my experience, having 4 languages at C levels is about my limit. The more I do this, the more I think leosmith is right with taking languages to B2. For what we do, living outside TL countries, B2 is good enough.

And with only two languages on my C-level list (5 to B2, okay I did say ‘or beyond’ if time permits, i.e. its a bonus to go further than B2), I’ve at least lowered the bar there from earlier ideas of taking any and every FL to C2 and beyond.

...I just want to demonstrate that I am already doing everything I can in French.

I know this, PM. My comments are for the community in general and especially new learners. Mass media consumption and "false immersion" will only take a learner so far. At some point, some kind of formal study is needed. Whether that is sitting at a desk or lying in bed in the morning and using my tablet, some analysis/study of the language and how it is manipulated is critical. How much analysis/study varies among learners from none to the overwhelming time with the language. After studying courses and grammar. I like to then work that stuff out as I go by reading, listening, writing and during that time, I get plenty of study in while I'm trying to figure out things... which is one of the reasons why I don't keep track of study time when I'm learning... I can't.

I suspected your comments were aimed at the general community, but it wasn’t crystal-clear. I do wonder sometimes whether I’m not much different to many accomplished language learners around these parts, but just a lot slower. I’m getting better/more efficient with experience, I’d like to think.

When you start learning multiple languages simultaneously, the "three hours desk time" will bump very quickly into reality. That's why, over the years, I've advised you to learn while using native materials. In this way, you can get both activities in and you may find that you will advance more quickly. Still, I know you are you.

I don’t ‘deny’ the importance of using native content and I do use native content. Like I said, I’m slower than the average bear and also love my French courses, which has meant less time in native content land than the average bear. I expect to reach native content land with less courses under my belt with the other languages in future.

Still, I will freely admit that I plan on doing more French courses, but French study will be ongoing and I’ve made that clear. Again as Serpent and yourself indicate, this could be a problem for this multi-lingual plan.

The question in the air is can you replicate your same French-learning path (dedicated solely to French) to success with other languages? I have a feeling that something is going to have to give- either your perfectionism or your separation of study time and media time into distinct segments. If the two segments are combined, I find it takes less time and is more effective. YMMV! Again, you are you, PM, and you have been successful with your approach. I'm curious to see how you will evolve with learning more languages. You will find your own way that's right for you, of that I am certain. The good thing is that language maintenance, though time consuming, can be very enjoyable... which is why I do this in the first place- to enjoy what I can do with a language.

This all makes sense. Time will tell how I adapt (or don’t).

When emk said he learned French by watching Buffy the Vampire Slayer and reading comics, he's right, but it can leave the false impression that he wasn't active in those activities. Probably many of us who follow a similar path leave that same false impression. There's a lot of work behind the scenes. Looking up a word or a phrase in a good dictionary exposes the learner to example sentences, synonyms and explanations which can lead to rabbit holes of further research. I may be wrong, but for me grammar study is more useful if I am being exposed to the language in the real world alongside studying the usage. One unknown phrase or word can send me into a flurry of research. For me, this type of "study" is rewarding and enjoyable. Others may not find it to be and that's ok. There are many paths to take.

Again, this all makes sense.

Thank you kindly once again iguanamon for sharing your wise comments.

[PeterMollenburg]

Okay I'm going to outline some possible study plans that I've come up with along the way.

I first started with the 'Plan one', below. This and any subsequent plans must include 30 minutes of French reading and 30 minutes of Dutch reading to my kids. I am likely to only find 2 other dedicated hours of study without children involvement, but I may find 3 hours. Still I will base it on 2 hours more hours only. French and Dutch must be studied in all plans - that is the second non-negotiable trait throughout all plans. There will be extra's outside of these 3 hours (watching series, some personal reading etc, i.e. stolen moments.

So, this is the 'traditional' one I came up with initially, pretty straightforward:
Plan one
1st hour:
30 minutes FR reading to children, 30 minutes NL reading to children (not negotiable).

2nd and 3rd hours:
1 hour of Dutch
1 hour of French.

I then considered the 'bow-wave effect', something that was discussed considerably around 1 year or 18 months ago on the forum at a rough guess. In it, much discussion arose about how after a certain period of study one tends to flounder, to not get as much out of their study and so on. Periods of concentrated study were proposed followed with down-time periods. After discussion with smallwhite, I felt that 6 weeks was a good period of time to cycle out some languages that may be in a multi-language study plan. However, here I've considered that I could put French (or Dutch) into maintenance mode, while the other goes into a 6 week focused study period then vice versa with the next 6 weeks. So this plan goes like this:

Plan two
1st hour:
30 minutes FR reading to children, 30 minutes NL reading to children (not negotiable).

2nd and 3rd hours:
2 hours of French only for 6 weeks, then 2 hours of Dutch only for 6 weeks.


Then I considered what David1917 said, which had crossed my mind too. That it would be good to start chipping away at the more difficult languages - Russian and Arabic. I resolved myself to the fact that this wasn't possible. That as many had suggested already, focus on one (max 2) languages at a time. Then I considered modifying the above plan to come up with this plan:

Plan three
1st hour:
30 minutes FR reading to children, 30 minutes NL reading to children (not negotiable).

2nd and 3rd hours:
1.5 hours of French only for 6 weeks, then 1.5 hours of Dutch only for 6 weeks.
30 minutes of Russian or Arabic daily OR 30 minutes of Russian day one, 30 minutes of Arabic day 2.

Arabic would make more sense than Russian, as I already have some learning material for Arabic and it is a fast growing language here. Where we have moved to (previously my home town) the census data from 2016 shows that Italian has the highest number of speakers of any language other than English spoken at home. Next is Arabic. Between 2011 (last census) and 2016 (latest census), the number of Italian speakers has dropped significantly, while Arabic has increased quite a lot. Another 5 years... in fact, now in 2019, 3 years since the last census, Arabic could be the clear leader. Even knowing a few words here and there while working at the local hospital could be useful or at least put a smile on the faces of Arabic speaking patients.

Then I changed my mind only to think, that considering I'd like the children to learn some Spanish and/or Norwegian some day, that it would make sense that I introduce (instead of Arabic or Russian) one of these two languages or both like this:

Plan four
1st hour:
30 minutes FR reading to children, 30 minutes NL reading to children (not negotiable).

2nd and 3rd hours:
1.5 hours of French only for 6 weeks, then 1.5 hours of Dutch only for 6 weeks.
30 minutes of Spanish or Norwegian daily OR 30 minutes of Spanish day one, 30 minutes of Norwegian day 2.

Spanish would be good as my nephew is interested in it and has learned a little, and if I learn a tad in a year's time for example I could start reading stories to my kids in Spanish at that point.

Then I started thinking, that 1.5 hours of French (or Dutch) for 6 weeks, averages out at only 45 minutes/day. Add the 30 minutes reading to the kids and I have 1hr 15min/day. Is this really a recipe for focus? Nope. So I'm back at my original plan. In fact I've even considered this:

Plan five
1st hour:
30 minutes FR reading to children, 30 minutes NL reading to children (not negotiable).

2nd and 3rd hours:
2 hours of more French only for a year to advance further, then introduce Dutch study time.

Edit: Then I thought, why not go with plan 1 then perhaps study some Spanish in my spare time (if I find more time beyond the 3 hours total).

[Lianne]

PM, you remind me a bit of myself, arguing with myself over when/if/how I can let myself study another language.

My current plan is to focus hard on French for 2019, and then, assuming I've reached a sufficient level to do so, start learning Italian from French in 2020. A slight change recently is that I've let myself start learning ASL, but only after doing my day's French, so that I know I'm not taking away French time! (I'm currently steadfastly ignoring Swedish and Klingon, despite my heart's desires.)

Actually, this leads me to a question: Have you considered laddering languages at all? French is a good base language for finding resources for lots of other languages. You could probably start on any of your additional languages, using French as the base, and thus would be working on your French even as you work on another language! Your French is surely strong enough to serve this purpose well.

[PeterMollenburg]

PM, you remind me a bit of myself, arguing with myself over when/if/how I can let myself study another language.

My current plan is to focus hard on French for 2019, and then, assuming I've reached a sufficient level to do so, start learning Italian from French in 2020. A slight change recently is that I've let myself start learning ASL, but only after doing my day's French, so that I know I'm not taking away French time! (I'm currently steadfastly ignoring Swedish and Klingon, despite my heart's desires.)

Actually, this leads me to a question: Have you considered laddering languages at all? French is a good base language for finding resources for lots of other languages. You could probably start on any of your additional languages, using French as the base, and thus would be working on your French even as you work on another language! Your French is surely strong enough to serve this purpose well.

Hi Lianne,

Yeah, I do a lot of this quabbling with myself over how the future will look with regards to me (the central character a.k.a. the superhero or idiot depending on your angle) and languages (my sidekicks or distractions?). In any case, most of the time it amounts to wasted energy, but sometimes decent things come out of my mental tug-of-wars coupled with analytical to-ing and fro-ing.

Your language plan sounds decent but if were you, I’d hold of on your Italian until 2021 at least. I know you said

assuming I've reached a sufficient level to do so, start learning Italian from French in 2020

, but reading your post recently about your French listening comprehension being limited to Peppa Pig, I’d be aiming for another solid year of French after this one.

I’m not saying your French level is crap, it’s not. You’re doing a great job of remaining consistent and progressing well, but it takes time to be able to comprehend much more complex audio as well as developing the other skills, more than many ppl care to acknowledge, so go a little bit longer is my opinion, before introducing Italian, regardless the base language. Still, some ppl do progress incredibly well in short time frames (Skynet, for eg).

Indeed I’ve considered learning other languages from a French base. I have many Dutch and some Arabic resources in French, but:

1. Advancing in a foreign language you’re not already advanced in by studying another language and using that first FL as a base isn’t a very efficient method to advance that base language. Better to just study that FL with more focused content that provides more bang for buck.

2. If you are advanced in your base (FL) when learning another language, then the above again is not efficient. If wanting to improve your advanced language, you’d be better off reading a book for native speakers or watching a series, for example.

3. There are many excellent resources for learning target language A available in language B, C and D. For example, I have too many decent Dutch resources from an English base to ignore them, but I’ve also a few good French based Dutch courses as well, which I’m keen to utilise. I concluded, use whatever suits ones needs in whichever language.

However, if you’ve not already collected many resources for learning Italian from an English base and can most defintely get all or most of what you require for your needs in learning Italian from a French base, then by all means, skip the English based resources, as it will be more time involved in the French language, which may not work miracles for your French but it will certainly help.

[PeterMollenburg]

Plan two
1st hour:
30 minutes FR reading to children, 30 minutes NL reading to children (not negotiable).

2nd and 3rd hours:
2 hours of French only for 6 weeks, then 2 hours of Dutch only for 6 weeks.

I've decided to go with this plan above. No-one has replied much here with regards to my plans, but I don't blame them, I've kind of gone a little crazy with posting lately, but I do want to figure this out, as well as answer everyone's comments. My wife quickly ran through the plans with me (yeah she puts up with this crap) and helped me decide. We agree that 6 week stints of focusing on one language may be better for keeping my interest high and my progress speedier. But I don't have to fret that I will lose ground when swapping languages, as the 30 min of reading to the kids in both languages will keep it in maintenance mode. I'll ensure Dutch coincides with the 6 week challenge for extra motivation. Thus, plan begins May 1st.

We also figured that I'd do this plan for a while and decide whether or not adding a 30 minute stint of another language (most likely Spanish) daily is advisable - meaning that it won't hinder my progress much in the other languages. 30 minutes of Spanish in the beginning would not be difficult, considering I'd be covering old ground for a good while and of course the discount (okay it's not huge, but it helps) of knowing French above B2.

Adding more languages after French and Dutch, will mean my FR and NL need to be to decent levels, so this FR/NL +/- another FL plan is going to be ongoing for some time before adding subsequent languages. If life gets busy, I take too long, well it means I might not make it to Arabic and Russian, maybe not German nor Norwegian, but we'll see. At least I won't be studyng all at once and end up in a shambles as soon as life does get busy or unexpected life events arise. I'm sure you've all thoroughly enjoyed my ramblings

[Elsa Maria]

I have indeed enjoyed your ramblings! I always like reading about people's plans and schedules.

I am not in a position to offer any advice, but I like the 6 week cycle idea. In fact, I recently chose that cycle myself, and made a brief post about it in my log. Danish is the language that I am determined to take to a very high level, but there is no way I could or should continue with just Danish.

I currently have immediate use for both Dutch and Spanish, and looking forward I expect to need Polish more than Danish over the next five years. Hence the six week plan. The 6WChallenges will take care of the lower level languages. The six week interim plus the 365 Day Challenge ensures that Danish does not get neglected.

Are you still planning to homeschool? If so, you will find that your penchant for planning and scheduling musings will come in handy when you start figuring out your homeschool. For many of us homeschool parents, it is considered a fun part of the job