Can taking classes at a university bring someone to a proficient level?

[USF_Fan]

I am planning on minoring in Spanish for university here in the United States, and I would love to one day reach a proficient level. Perhaps B1+/B2 standards in all 4 areas of the language. I have attempted to self study before a few times and dabbled in various self teaching courses before such as Assimil, Pimsleur, and even FSI and I have to say it is very difficult self learning from scratch and not having a teacher/tutor there to help. I am someone that works best with a mentor and tutor at the beginning for almost any skill I learn, and was thinking that these classes could really help me. I was planning to take the courses for the minor offered at my university which is elementary I, elementary II, intermediate I, Intermediate II, and a 3000 level course for the minor, but would be willing to take even more classes to really get my proficiency up. Below are some of the courses that they offer:




SPN1120 Elementary Spanish I (4)
SPN1220 Elementary Spanish II (4)
SPN2200 Intermediate Spanish I (4)
SPN2300 Intermediate Spanish II (4)
SPN3200 Advanced Spanish: Conversation and Phonetics (4)
SPN3300 Spanish Translation (4)
SPN3800 Advanced Grammar and Composition in Spanish (4)
SPN4990 Spanish Capstone Seminar (4)



SPN3650 Language and Community Immersion (4)
SPN3880 Spanish Travel/Immersion Experience (4)
SPN3450 Conversation and Culture through Spanish Language Films (4)
SPN3500 Advanced Spanish Literature (4)
SPN3600 Latin American Civilization and Culture (4)




Hopefully this gives some sort of context as to what I could be learning.


I have heard great stories of people reaching B2 or even higher in a language on their own, but that is very rare and extremely difficult for a self study individual. Nevertheless, It is a goal of mine to reach.


I have heard horror stories of people going to school to learn a language to not even be able to communicate at the most basic of levels and that has me afraid of potentially wasting my time. But I wanted to ask on this forum to see if anyone has any experience or say in what level of proficiency can be possible with 2 years of studying Spanish at university. From an A0-C2 scale where do you think taking courses at university plus outside practice (I plan to practice with another tutor for speaking practice when not in class, perhaps on Italki) would take someone?


Would I be able to have a working proficient knowledge with 2 years of the classes listed above? Or are classes truly as bad as people say they are?


Thank you for your help!

[Axon]

A lot is going to depend on the interest you have in Spanish and the quality of your teachers. It certainly seems like you have the first one covered!

Simply the fact that you are a little interested in Spanish and you know about self-study resources puts you on a level above many other students. Remember that most students make no effort at all to retain language knowledge after class, and certainly make no effort to use the language actively outside of school.

I believe after two years of these classes plus outside study time as you've described, the worst-case scenario would be an A2+. Assuming you applied yourself over the summer and winter breaks to reviewing your class materials and finding new sources of authentic Spanish to read and listen to, I wouldn't be surprised if you ended up a B2. The more Spanish you watch and listen to, the easier you will find your classes.

It's been many years since I personally have taken a Spanish class, but I remember reading some Spanish Translation textbooks that my friends had and they were definitely at an advanced (C1/C2) level. So if your courses are rigorous enough, you may end up beyond B2 in terms of reading and listening. From those course names, your writing is also likely to be solid.

However, I took all the German courses offered at my university and there were very few people in even the most advanced classes that could hold error-free conversations. One of the most fluent speakers (besides heritage learners) had spent the summer in Berlin, and he still kept a habit of peppering his German speech with "yaknow" and "kinda." Your outside practice is going to have the most impact on your actual ability to express yourself fluently, and two years is a bit of a tight window for that. Nevertheless, your learning will not and should not stop after two years, and I believe that these classes should give you a very valuable foundation for fluency.

[zenmonkey]

A class delivers the material. But the student does the learning.

It's like asking if a guide dog can bring you to the train station. Many people think that the guide dog does all the work, but the owner makes all the decisions, and must be the conscious agent of the destination.

So for the university student, it's a conscious act to spend the time in and out of the class to learn a language. Learning a language is much less about learning a language than it's about acquiring a language.

It's about learning the structure, learning the rules but much more about the time spend allowing acquisition, self talk, internal immersion, practice - less about focusing on the outcome of the tests (although that is important ...) and more about learning to learn.

When I was an undergraduate in college - among my housemates and friends we had people learning Arabic, Chinese and Russian (along with the typical French, Spanish and German classes). Those that succeeded were the ones that played with language outside of class - practiced among themselves and in front of us, did cultural immersion with the language, working on it on the weekends and during the summer. Language is unlike any other subject - you can't memorise it until you become a good speaker, you need to acquire it much like the proficiency of a sport, by practicing it.

At the same time, I also saw people taking the advanced Spanish lit classes (I was a reader for a class on "Generation of (18)'98") who had little to no fluidity in speaking Spanish. They had passed all the exams to get to an advanced level (you needed a B average in 6 classes in that class) yet still had difficulty with reading for prosody or spontaneous chit-chat.

The classes and structure your have in that list will certainly help but if I can give three points of advice :

1) learn to learn
2) fall passionately in love with the process
3) spend an hour everyday outside of class working on production as soon as you can, on top of any class time and class work.

[garyb]

I've met quite a few people who studied a language at university, as their main subject and including a year in the country. Most could barely converse in it, and the exceptions were those who clearly had a passion for it and had made an effort beyond what was required for their studies. That said, those courses tended to be more focused on literature, while the titles you've mentioned sound much more practical and contemporary and could complement self-study quite well. I'd be inclined to think that B2 with near-full-time study (at school and outside) is quite possible.

B2 through self-study isn't all that uncommon: plenty people on here have achieved it, although usually in a longer period since they're studying part-time unless it's a language similar to one they already knew. My Italian was around B2 after just over two years, but I already knew French so had a big head-start.

[Beli Tsar]

I've met quite a few people who studied a language at university, as their main subject and including a year in the country. Most could barely converse in it, and the exceptions were those who clearly had a passion for it and had made an effort beyond what was required for their studies. That said, those courses tended to be more focused on literature, while the titles you've mentioned sound much more practical and contemporary and could complement self-study quite well. I'd be inclined to think that B2 with near-full-time study (at school and outside) is quite possible.

Doesn't it depend really, really heavily on the university? They vary so much in what they aim to do, as well as what they succeed in.

You hear lots of horror stories, but I also have friends whose French is excellent - including one who, was able to join a French legal practice after their course and work happily in Paris, in French, without trouble. His course clearly worked pretty well.

Investigating the particular course and what it does is surely critical. Can you talk to someone who has been through the same course?

Also, don't almost all those who succeed in speaking really well spend a whole year in country? Usually in addition to multiple other trips? Most of my friends who did well at languages at University did literature-focused degrees, but they also threw themselves into the society and went to little villages, rather than chatting with expats in the capital.

[aokoye]

Language is unlike any other subject - you can't memorise it until you become a good speaker, you need to acquire it much like the proficiency of a sport, by practicing it.

It's like a lower stakes version of being a music performance major really. You aren't competing with anyone, you don't have juries, etc. At the same time, most language majors don't come into college/university with the experience and knowledge of practicing that most music majors do.

[aokoye]

I've met quite a few people who studied a language at university, as their main subject and including a year in the country. Most could barely converse in it, and the exceptions were those who clearly had a passion for it and had made an effort beyond what was required for their studies. That said, those courses tended to be more focused on literature, while the titles you've mentioned sound much more practical and contemporary and could complement self-study quite well. I'd be inclined to think that B2 with near-full-time study (at school and outside) is quite possible.

Doesn't it depend really, really heavily on the university? They vary so much in what they aim to do, as well as what they succeed in.

You hear lots of horror stories, but I also have friends whose French is excellent - including one who, was able to join a French legal practice after their course and work happily in Paris, in French, without trouble. His course clearly worked pretty well.

Investigating the particular course and what it does is surely critical. Can you talk to someone who has been through the same course?

Also, don't almost all those who succeed in speaking really well spend a whole year in country? Usually in addition to multiple other trips? Most of my friends who did well at languages at University did literature-focused degrees, but they also threw themselves into the society and went to little villages, rather than chatting with expats in the capital.

I think it depends on the university, the department, and the individual student. While my university has an tiny Swedish "department" (it's one person), students can easily come out with a B2 level of Swedish after two years if they work hard enough because of the professor who teaches and the material that's used. If they then go on to study abroad in Sweden then that would likely end up pushing their proficiency level higher. Language Flagship programs in the US also tend to churn out students with very high proficiencies, but they're also funded, in part, by the department of defence.

Students don't need to study abroad for a year, or even three months, in a country that speaks X language to reach a high proficiency level. Frankly not all students who want to study abroad will be able to study abroad for various reasons. There's at least one study that shows that a domestic language immersion programs (think Middlebury's summer language programs in the US) are just as useful as international ones of the same length with regards to second language acquisition. What they do need to be is engaged, have access to appropriate resources, and have (and take advantage of) ample opportunity to practice.

[kanewai]

A class delivers the material. But the student does the learning.

This is sort of the key, eh? I struggled with languages at the University (skipped language labs, tended to binge-study and pull all-nighters rather than study each day) but even then what I learned stayed with me for a surprisingly long time. If I combined what I know now about self study with University classes I think I would have been an ace student and reached a high level of fluency.

I am someone that works best with a mentor and tutor at the beginning for almost any skill I learn,

Language learning is a far different skill than most! I learned the hard way that I needed to learn a whole new set of techniques than those that worked for me for other skills - physical, mental, or technical.

Also, don't almost all those who succeed in speaking really well spend a whole year in country?

Students don't need to study abroad for a year, or even three months, in a country that speaks X language to reach a high proficiency level. Frankly not all students who want to study abroad will be able to study abroad for various reasons.

I never had the money to spend a year abroad as a student, but I've worked overseas as an adult. The languages that I learned through intense immersion seem deeper-coded to me than ones I've learned through self study. They last longer. They feel more natural.

But the language skills of most (not all) students I know did not benefit from their studies abroad. Most, though, went to a place that had too many foreign students (Antigua in Guatemala, for example). The ones that succeeded seemed to have a reason beyond just studying the language. They were doing relief work in the Yucatan, or political work in Nicaragua, or just had a deep passion for a land and its people (everyone who went to Andalusia). The language for them was a means to a deeper end rather than an end in and of itself, and I think that motivated them more. It drove them to work harder.

[Lawyer&Mom]

The advantage of University study is mainly structure: Fixed deadlines, papers to write, books you must read. The nuts and bolts are definitely covered, honestly more efficiently for me than with self study. What university students don’t get in class is massive input. Study abroad used to be the only way, now you have Netflix, YouTube, iTalk etc. So absolutely, minor in Spanish. Just know that your courses will give you a great foundation, but you will also need to supplement your coursework, almost from the beginning with binging on Telenovelas, reading pulp fiction and chatting with natives. (The extracurricular Spanish does *not* have to be work!) If you do this you can absolutely get to B2 in two years.

[Spoonary]

As someone who has been there and done that (and by that I mean studied Spanish at university and reached a decent level), I figured I would pop my head in and offer my experience.

In short, I started to really make the most out of my degree when I stopped relying on the 5 or so weekly hours of classroom time I had where I studied Spanish to teach me the language.

My degree offered me this:
In the seminars we studied grammar mainly, doing writing exercises and filling in many a gap. We also had seminars focussed on speaking where we would discuss your usual 'hot topics' and each person would get the chance to say a few things while we all struggled to piece together our thoughts into somewhat comprehensibleSpanish

We also studied literature, history and art so there was some target language reading involved in that too.

By the middle of my first year, I realised that limiting myself to going to these seminars and lectures and doing the exercises given was not going to cut it, particularly because I started from an intermediate level (I had done A level Spanish) and I was struggling to understand the texts we were given to read.

After much searching, I worked out that input was what I was missing and started to watch/read/listen to all sorts of things in Spanish. This changed everything. My level of comprehension skyrocketed and soon I was asking my lecturers questions about turns of phrase or vocabulary I had found while absorbing native content, far outpacing a good chunk of my fellow students.

This is the key, you have to make use of the time you have at uni to support the work you do yourself, or at least do enough work yourself to get the most out of the tasks you are given. Universities are also full of language exchange oportunities (I did one in second year and it worked wonders for my Spanish) and, if they have a strong languages department, other language learning materials like books and audio.

I would also like to say a few words about my year abroad. I lived in Spain for a year and I spoke Spanish the vast majority of the time, with friends and housemates. This helped me consolidate everything I had learned at uni into something I not only studied and spouted out to teachers, but also something I lived. Speaking Spanish became natural to me, because I had to do it every day.

To conclude, going to university gave me a solid reason to keep working on and improving my Spanish (deadlines and exams have a way of making people get things done), as well as offering me the means to consolidate my grasp of the language and people to try out my questionable grammar on who were paid to listen to me and help me improve. However, I did do a large chunk of the learning myself, so although doing a language degree helps one learn a language, I definitely don't think it is necessary.

I don't know if I answered the question