Is it still useful to use L1 (English) translations/resources at higher levels?

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zjones
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Is it still useful to use L1 (English) translations/resources at higher levels?

Postby zjones » Fri Feb 15, 2019 12:04 am

I have a question, I was going to ask it on my log but I thought it might be useful for others too.

I'm continuing to read more and more complex sentences in French, mostly in French news. Sometimes I use Linguee to check specific phrases and I'm always surprised by how natural the English translations are, or by the translations themselves. None of them are how I would have translated the phrase, obviously, but my shock at the translations is a little disconcerting. Reading English resources or translations makes everything (verbs, phrases, whole sentences) seem much more clear. But does that mean it's helpful?

So here's my question: should I be looking at bilingual translations like this more often? Can I trust myself to pick up these French meanings and ideas through huge amounts of exposure? I've been using all-French resources (no translations, just a dictionary and rarely Linguee) once I finished Assimil French With Ease at upper A2. At this point I'm wondering if I shouldn't have moved to all-French so quickly. Or maybe this is just a step along the language-learning path and because I haven't been here before, I don't know that it's normal.

I feel like I'm in uncharted territory and I am genuinely very curious to see what people with high levels in an L2 (C1+) have to say about this. What are your thoughts about using translations or L1 resources at this stage? What was your experience?
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Re: Is it still useful to use L1 (English) translations/resources at higher levels?

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Feb 15, 2019 2:47 am

I do not think that there is a hard-and-fast answer to this question. The very process of learning a foreign language, or anything else for that matter, is subject to a lot theory and conjecture none of which can be absolutely proven. Some people incorporate unilingual L2 materials into their foreign language studies at a very early stage whereas others rely on L1/L2 materials during the advanced stages, not necessarily because they absolutely require this level of support but simply because they are more comfortable doing so. Ultimately, though, if we really want to progress, we have to remove the training-wheels and get into the rush-hour traffic. It’s scary at first, but the sense of autonomy is absolutely exhilarating. How would Rocky Balboa have replied to this question? Jus’ do-it !!!
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lavengro
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Re: Is it still useful to use L1 (English) translations/resources at higher levels?

Postby lavengro » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:29 am

Speakeasy wrote:... How would Rocky Balboa have replied to this question? Jus’ do-it !!!

Not disagreeing with your post by any means, but just as a PSA, I feel obliged to remind people that Rocky's reckless, devil-may-care attitude in life got him punched in the face often - quite a bit actually - and eventually resulted in his sustaining severe brain trauma.
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Re: Is it still useful to use L1 (English) translations/resources at higher levels?

Postby Speakeasy » Fri Feb 15, 2019 3:42 am

lavengro wrote: ... Rocky's reckless, devil-may-care attitude in life got him punched in the face often - quite a bit actually ...
Rocky.jpg
Should someone misconstrue my allusion to the fictional character Rocky Balboa’s advice to “jus’ do-it”, both in my initial post and in the Rocky Quote directly above, I would offer as a clarification that this was NOT a suggestion that language-learners should incur the risk doing serious long-term damage to their health in the pursuit of their linguistic dreams. Rather, it was nothing more than a reference to Rocky’s sense of “true grit” and his perseverance before what-seemed-to-be insurmountable obstacles. If Rocky wanted to learn French, he would “jus’ do-it!” ;) ;) ;)

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Cèid Donn
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Re: Is it still useful to use L1 (English) translations/resources at higher levels?

Postby Cèid Donn » Fri Feb 15, 2019 4:26 am

So here's my question: should I be looking at bilingual translations like this more often?


I personally think more advanced learners should do this more than they are typically encouraged to do so. And the more you do, at an advanced level, I believe the more you'll understand why.

For one, translating between L1 and L2 and vice versa is a skill unto itself that requires a highly nuanced level of knowledge of both languages that will only come from comparing them in pretty fine detail. And I am of the opinion that the sooner you start doing this, the better off you'll be in the long run, especially in regards to developing your own "voice" in your L2. My logic here is actually the same logic behind teh advice given to writers on how to develop their own writing voice--by first mimicking how other writers they admire express themselves and with practice, begin to incorporate those elements into their own voice. I'm just applying this idea of how to develop your own voice with writing creatively in your native language to learning how to express yourself creatively in your L2.

This is of course in addition to writing, reading and speaking in your L2 and using L2-only resources. No offense to Speakeasy, but calling it "training wheels" at this stage is missing the point. Once you're at a B2 level or higher, you want to start learning how to think in your L2 as a native would, to express yourself in that language as a native would. And there are so many nuances and connotations that cannot be easily explained that you already know how to express with ease in your L1, but despite the amount of vocabulary and grammar you know, you'll likely still struggle to express in your L2, at least in a natural, native-like way. But if you compare and contrast how natives express that same idea in their language to how you would in your L1, things will start to come together intuitively and perhaps more concretely as well. This isn't about using your L1 as a crutch--I know from your log here that you're doing a lot of reading, writing and speaking in French only already. You're able to functionally use this language now, so you're at a different stage now. Now, it's about pulling up your L2 to your L1 level, and your L1 is there as a measure for you to see what is still missing in your L2 usage.

That is not to say you should be double-checking everything against L1 translations, and yes, continue to use L2-only materials as much as possible, especially with input. But I have known fluent L2 French, Gaelic, German and Spanish speakers who were very conscious of the differences between how they would express the same idea or sentiment differently in their L2 and the L1 and to me, that is the level of fluency I aspire to. And I just don't see any path to getting there without studying how natives would express themselves in my L2 compared to my L1. This is actually one of my favorite things to do with my more advanced languages--I work it into whatever else I'm working, usually--because it's very rewarding and exciting for me to be at that level where I start to know my L2 as intimately and personally as I do my L1.
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Re: Is it still useful to use L1 (English) translations/resources at higher levels?

Postby Godryka » Sat Feb 16, 2019 8:17 pm

zjones wrote: I'm continuing to read more and more complex sentences in French, mostly in French news. Sometimes I use Linguee to check specific phrases and I'm always surprised by how natural the English translations are, or by the translations themselves. None of them are how I would have translated the phrase, obviously, but my shock at the translations is a little disconcerting. Reading English resources or translations makes everything (verbs, phrases, whole sentences) seem much more clear.

I had the exact same sentiment when looking at the Polish translation of the French sentences in my SRS for French. In my SRS, in addition to regular vocabulary flashcards, there are also flashcards with example sentences which I am supposed to translate into Polish. My translations are never as smooth as the ones provided by the software, and this is quite frustrating. If I know what the sentence means, I am able to translate it correctly, but most of the time, not beautifully (i.e. I don't always succeed at choosing the most precise words that bring out the exact meaning of the original sentence).

So I wondered about this for a while. I considered whether I was losing fluidity in Polish (due to having lived abroad for the past 5+ years). In the end, I concluded that, as Cèid Donn pointed out above, translating is a skill. Even if you know two languages perfectly, you are probably not going to produce a beautifully flowing translation from one of them into another if you never practised this particular skill. For an example, some people at my work are functionally bilingual (grew up speaking French at home, went to school in French, learned English through living in a mostly English-speaking city and through work), but when they need to produce bilingual texts, they ask a professional, a translator, to translate the English drafts into French. My coworkers are not trained in translation, so if they decided to do it on their own, then in order to create a text in French that would convey the exact same meaning but sound natural to French speakers, they would have to spend an enormous amount of time and effort, whereas a translator is trained at this sort of precision with words.

So I wouldn't worry about not being able to always translate as precisely as the professionals can.
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