It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

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chove
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby chove » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:40 pm

Cainntear wrote:
chove wrote:The last Scottish census asked me if I speak Scots, which is clearly a politcal attempt to make it even more legitimate (we have a pro-independence devolved parliament here at the moment).

That's not particularly relevant. The UK government at Westminster signed up to the European Charter for Regional or Minority Languages, then devolved responsibility for both Scots and Scottish Gaelic to Holyrood. Language politics in Scotland are not generally divided on partisan lines.


Fair enough :)
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby reineke » Mon Feb 11, 2019 2:34 pm

We do have a grammar in our head
New research presents evidence for innate understanding of language rules

A type of "internal grammar" helps us to identify sentences with no meaning as being grammatically correct.

Noam Chomsky already believed in the second half of the 20th century that humans are born with a predisposition to understand and learn language. Scientists at the Max Planck Institute for Empirical Aesthetics and New York University have now confirmed an aspect of this theory. Using sophisticated tests they have shown how people are able to comprehend abstract, hierarchical structures - even if a sentence is a meaningless. There seems to be some sort of mechanism in the brain that ensures that the grammatical elements of a sentence can be hierarchically structured even if its content makes no sense.

“One of the foundational elements of Chomsky’s work is that we have a grammar in our head, which underlies our processing of language,” explains David Poeppel, one of the authors of the study. “Our neurophysiological findings support this theory: we make sense of strings of words because our brains combine words into constituents in a hierarchical manner. This process reflects an ‘internal grammar’ mechanism.”

The research, which appears in the latest issue of the journal Nature Neuroscience, and is a collaboration between Max Planck Institute for Empirical Aesthetics and the New York University, builds on Chomsky’s work, Syntactic Structures (1957). According to Chomsky, we can recognize a phrase such as “Colourless green ideas sleep furiously” as both nonsensical and grammatically correct because we have an abstract knowledge base that allows us to make such distinctions even though, based on our experience, there is no statistical relation between the words.

Neuroscientists and psychologists predominantly reject this viewpoint. They believe that our comprehension does not result from an internal grammar, but that it is rather based on both statistical calculations between words and sound cues to structure. This would mean that we know from experience how sentences should be properly constructed. Many linguists, in contrast, argue that a central feature of language processing is the building of hierarchical structure.

In an effort to illuminate this debate, the researchers explored whether and how linguistic units are represented in the brain during speech comprehension. To do so, a series of experiments using magnetoencephalography (MEG) was conducted, which allows measurements of the tiny magnetic fields generated by brain activity. In addition, the researchers used electrocorticography (ECoG), a clinical technique for measuring brain activity in patients being monitored for neurosurgery.

The study’s subjects listened to sentences in both English and Mandarin Chinese in which the hierarchical structure between words, phrases, and sentences was dissociated from intonational speech cues—the rise and fall of the voice—as well as statistical word cues. The sentences were presented in an isochronous fashion—identical timing between words—and participants listened to both predictable sentences (e.g., “New York never sleeps” or “Coffee keeps me awake”), grammatically correct, but less predictable sentences (e.g., “Pink toys hurt girls”), or word lists (“eggs jelly pink awake”) and various other manipulated sequences.

The design allowed the researchers to isolate how the brain concurrently tracks and processes different levels of linguistic abstraction—sequences of words (“furiously green sleep colourless”), phrases (“sleep furiously” “green ideas”), or sentences (“Colourless green ideas sleep furiously”)—while removing intonational speech cues and statistical word information, which many say are necessary in building sentences.

Their results showed that the subjects’ brains distinctly tracked three components of the phrases they heard, reflecting a hierarchy in our neural processing of linguistic structures: words, phrases, and then sentences—at the same time. The rhythms in the brain, so-called neuronal oscillations, which underlie such processes of language comprehension, are adapted to the time structure of the respective language structure, i.e. faster rhythms track faster words; slower rhythms track phrases.

“Because we went to great lengths to design experimental conditions that control for statistical or sound cue contributions to processing, our findings show that we must use the grammar in our head,” explains Poeppel. “Our brains lock onto every word before working to comprehend phrases and sentences. The dynamics reveal that we undergo a grammar-based construction in the processing of language.”

With this controversial conclusion, the researchers are rekindling an old debate because the notion of abstract, hierarchical, grammar-based structure building had more or less been rejected by researchers."

Abstract

The most critical attribute of human language is its unbounded combinatorial nature: smaller elements can be combined into larger structures on the basis of a grammatical system, resulting in a hierarchy of linguistic units, such as words, phrases and sentences. Mentally parsing and representing such structures, however, poses challenges for speech comprehension. In speech, hierarchical linguistic structures do not have boundaries that are clearly defined by acoustic cues and must therefore be internally and incrementally constructed during comprehension. We found that, during listening to connected speech, cortical activity of different timescales concurrently tracked the time course of abstract linguistic structures at different hierarchical levels, such as words, phrases and sentences. Notably, the neural tracking of hierarchical linguistic structures was dissociated from the encoding of acoustic cues and from the predictability of incoming words. Our results indicate that a hierarchy of neural processing timescales underlies grammar-based internal construction of hierarchical linguistic structure.

https://www.mpg.de/9785401/internal-grammar
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby Skynet » Tue Feb 12, 2019 2:05 pm

Proem
The writer is displaying an unprecedented level of hubris in saying "all native speakers are experts in their language" that borders on being imbecilic. Native English speakers (and I am referring to the college-educated ilk, of which I acknowledge my complicity) frequently make rudimentary errors. The writer mistakenly bases his opinions on the aforementioned absurdity.

Heil, Grammar Fuhrer
While the author was referring to spoken forms of English, we cannot exclude written forms of the language in formulating a complete thesis on the subject matter. Chomsky did not predate prescriptivism. This is a social phenomenon that has always existed, and will continue to exist in the foreseeable future. Destructive discrimination of any kind is unacceptable, but the existence of a standard language is not negatively discriminatory. I would like to believe that Chove, our Scottish brogue-wielding denizen, probably sat the Scottish Highers as opposed to GCE A Levels for reasons other than discrimination. Whilst I do agree that the field has evolved tremendously since Chomsky proposed his theories, it is not prudent to jettison everything in the name of 'tolerance.'

When people sit an exam such as the IELTS, GRE, SAT, BULATS, CPE (recently rebranded C2 Proficiency) or TOEFL, the markers of said exams expect the test-takers to adhere to standard English. Introducing 'alternative forms' of English that evolved in a hitherto unknown borough will only provoke the ire of the marker. If anything, Standard English is a lingua franca from which English speakers with different dialects, regionalisms and 'alternative uses' can communicate effectively. For example, I can read works by Patrick White without straining my attention because he writes in Standard English with a pinch of Australian idiosyncrasies like 'billabong.'

The Great Social Conflagration

The writer attempts to attribute Standard English to a socio-economic caste system, but only succeeds in setting up a straw man to deflect attention from the real causes: social changes and declining education standards. As I opined in this now-defunct thread, the aversion to absolute standards in everything has precipitated the declines in English that we are witnessing today. Those who have the 'effrontery' to question this trend are swiftly excoriated for being 'elitist.' I call this phenomenon The Great Social Conflagration where in our great haste to express our democratic right to demand social justice and tolerance, we have absolved ourselves of the burden of foresight. What do we think is next? Will ETS be pressured into administering GREs that do not have an answer key? Here is a preview from the American University.

EDIT: Corrected a spelling error.
Last edited by Skynet on Fri Feb 15, 2019 9:30 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby chove » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:18 pm

Scottish Highers are done in Standard English, we get them instead of A-Levels for constitutional/legal reasons rather than linguistic ones :D

(I hope someone can correct me if I'm wrong here, but I *think* The Act of Union specifies that Scotland and England&Wales have separate educational and legal systems.)
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby SGP » Tue Feb 12, 2019 7:30 pm

chove wrote:Scottish Highers are done in Standard English, we get them instead of A-Levels for constitutional/legal reasons rather than linguistic ones :D
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby mcthulhu » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:57 am

My wife would disagree with the subject line of this thread. She has been known to make fun of my alleged New England accent, while adamant that people from the Midwest have no accent. Coincidentally, she is from the Midwest.
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby Cainntear » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:49 pm

Skynet wrote:Proem
The writer is displaying an unprecedented level of hubris in saying "all native speakers are experts in their language" that borders on being imbecilic.

Given that this is a mainstream view in linguistics, then if it is hubris, it's very much precedented.
Native English speakers (and I am referring to the college-educated ilk, of which I acknowledge my complicity) frequently make rudimentary errors. The writer mistakenly bases his opinions on the aforementioned absurdity.

How can I speak my language wrong? Surely the absurdity lies in defining a "native language" as something that isn't spoken "natively".
but the existence of a standard language is not negatively discriminatory.

The concept of a standard language is not necessarily discriminatory. What is discriminatory is choosing one social/ethic/economic group's language as the core of that standard
I would like to believe that Chove, our Scottish brogue-wielding denizen, probably sat the Scottish Highers as opposed to GCE A Levels for reasons other than discrimination. Whilst I do agree that the field has evolved tremendously since Chomsky proposed his theories, it is not prudent to jettison everything in the name of 'tolerance.'

Or alternatively we could think about tolerance and respect and not use terms like "brogue", which is problematic in two ways -- 1) it refers to an Irish accent, and there's a difference between Ireland and Scotland and 2) it means shoe and was coined specifically to mock a particular non-standard variety of speech as rough and common.

When people sit an exam such as the IELTS, GRE, SAT, BULATS, CPE (recently rebranded C2 Proficiency) or TOEFL, the markers of said exams expect the test-takers to adhere to standard English. Introducing 'alternative forms' of English that evolved in a hitherto unknown borough will only provoke the ire of the marker.

Are you a marker for these exams? Please cite your source.

If anything, Standard English is a lingua franca from which English speakers with different dialects, regionalisms and 'alternative uses' can communicate effectively.

Except that most of the "errors" that pedants complain about do absolutely nothing to improve the efficacy of communication.
declining education standards.

There's a deep problem with this argument -- it has been statistically verified that kids whose home dialect is like the dialect of the teacher who do best in the school system, which leads to the conclusion that the way to improve education standards is for the teacher to talk more like a local.

I call this phenomenon The Great Social Conflagration where in our great haste to express our democratic right to demand social justice and tolerance, we have absolved ourselves of the burden of foresight. What do we think is next?

If your aim here is to defend us from tolerance by being aggressively intolerant of other people's views, well done.
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby Skynet » Fri Feb 22, 2019 10:45 pm

Skynet wrote:Proem
The writer is displaying an unprecedented level of hubris in saying "all native speakers are experts in their language" that borders on being imbecilic. ... Native English speakers (and I am referring to the college-educated ilk, of which I acknowledge my complicity) frequently make rudimentary errors. The writer mistakenly bases his opinions on the aforementioned absurdity.

Cainntear wrote:Given that this is a mainstream view in linguistics, then if it is hubris, it's very much precedented. How can I speak my language wrong? Surely the absurdity lies in defining a "native language" as something that isn't spoken "natively".


Rudimentary: basic, rudimentary methods, equipment, systems, or body parts are simple and not very well developed.. One is NOT an expert in any language, including one's allegedly-native language, if one makes rudimentary mistakes.

1. "When it comes to English – the international language not only for business but also higher education and cross-border collaboration – research shows that, far from being able to rest on their laurels, native speakers are not masters of the world’s global language."
2. "Recent graduates, including those with university degrees, seem to have no mastery of the language at all. They cannot construct a simple declarative sentence, either orally or in writing. They cannot spell common, everyday words. Punctuation is apparently no longer taught. Grammar is a complete mystery to almost all recent graduates."
3. "It would be unreasonable to expect ordinary people to guard their utterances so carefully as always to be brief and accurate, but it is perhaps not unreasonable to expect them to be especially careful in their written work and when speaking in public."

Skynet wrote:but the existence of a standard language is not negatively discriminatory.

Cainntear wrote: The concept of a standard language is not necessarily discriminatory. What is discriminatory is choosing one social/ethic/economic group's language as the core of that standard.

This was already addressed, so let us not continue to dwell on the matter.

Skynet wrote:I would like to believe that Chove, our Scottish brogue-wielding denizen, probably sat the Scottish Highers as opposed to GCE A Levels for reasons other than discrimination. Whilst I do agree that the field has evolved tremendously since Chomsky proposed his theories, it is not prudent to jettison everything in the name of 'tolerance.'

Cainntear wrote: Or alternatively we could think about tolerance and respect and not use terms like "brogue", which is problematic in two ways -- 1) it refers to an Irish accent, and there's a difference between Ireland and Scotland and 2) it means shoe and was coined specifically to mock a particular non-standard variety of speech as rough and common.


Which of these definitions show that the term is derogatory? (Spoiler: NONE)

Cambridge Dictionary: "a way of speaking English, especially that of Irish or Scottish speakers."
Macmillan Dictionary: "a strong local accent (=way of speaking), especially an Irish or Scottish accent"
Oxford Advanced Learner Dictionary: "the accent that somebody has when they are speaking, especially the accent of Irish or Scottish speakers of English"
While I will not rise to the bait and excoriate you for suggesting that I am unable to distinguish between Scotland and Ireland, I will urge you to refrain from engaging in sansationalism.
Skynet wrote: When people sit an exam such as the IELTS, GRE, SAT, BULATS, CPE (recently rebranded C2 Proficiency) or TOEFL, the markers of said exams expect the test-takers to adhere to standard English. Introducing 'alternative forms' of English that evolved in a hitherto unknown borough will only provoke the ire of the marker.

Cainntear wrote: Are you a marker for these exams? Please cite your source.

Please read about the way the exams are marked and take note of references to accents and standard English here: CPE, IELTS, SAT and the GRE. The BULATS is administered by Cambridge, and would be marked in a similar fashion as the CPE. I am certainly not a marker of any of these exams, but as someone who has taken all exams (bar the BULATS) and has attained the highest test scores in all of them despite writing and speaking in British English, I must stress the importance of using standard English when taking an exam.

Skynet wrote: If anything, Standard English is a lingua franca from which English speakers with different dialects, regionalisms and 'alternative uses' can communicate effectively.

Cainntear wrote: Except that most of the "errors" that pedants complain about do absolutely nothing to improve the efficacy of communication.

How do you communicate effectively when there is no standard? Perhaps we could use Globish?

Skynet wrote:declining education standards.

Cainntear wrote: There's a deep problem with this argument -- it has been statistically verified that kids whose home dialect is like the dialect of the teacher who do best in the school system, which leads to the conclusion that the way to improve education standards is for the teacher to talk more like a local.

Apportioning blame to the teacher with the non-local accent will not deflect me from stressing the point that the standard of education has declined. Compare an Assimil Without Toil with a New Assimil With Ease, which may as well be books from different publishing houses. The Economist agrees with me, a thread on JapanToday wonders 'Why do some native English speakers use broken or grammatically incorrect English, when trying to communicate with someone who isn't a native English speaker, but who may understand some English?' and the SCMPobserves the same in Hong Kong.

Skynet wrote:I call this phenomenon The Great Social Conflagration where in our great haste to express our democratic right to demand social justice and tolerance, we have absolved ourselves of the burden of foresight. What do we think is next?

Cainntear wrote: If your aim here is to defend us from tolerance by being aggressively intolerant of other people's views, well done.
I will not acquiesce to your subtle demands that I take up the gauntlet with you in response to your vitriol. If you thought that this would presage a stream of invective from me, then I must inform you that you have miscalculated.
Last edited by Serpent on Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:18 am, edited 1 time in total.
Reason: personal attack removed
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby reineke » Fri Feb 22, 2019 11:37 pm

Re: intellectual standards and ways of speaking English:
mod note: implied NSFW content
Last edited by Serpent on Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:58 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: It's time to challenge the notion that there is only one way to speak English

Postby Xmmm » Sat Feb 23, 2019 12:54 am

Skynet wrote:I will not acquiesce to your subtle demands that I take up the gauntlet with you in response to your vitriol. If you thought that this would presage a stream of invective from me, then I must inform you that you have miscalculated.


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