Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Tue Jun 20, 2017 2:12 pm

I thought I'd provide a bit of an update to this thread.

Around a month ago I passed the DELF B2 for French. Originally I was aiming for a whole level above this when I originally created this thread. Still, I passed with flying colours and my most informative and thorough tutor just prior to the exam had full confidence in me passing and placed me roughly somewhere part of the way (edit: half way) between B2 and C1 in terms of French language skills. For those who don't know, it was my output skills which were the strongest, and ironically, speaking, my strongest of all. Unlike a lot of other learners who perhaps struggle to develop decent speaking and writing skills, it seems I've gone against the usual pattern there. That gives me some breathing space, knowing that I'm doing something right.

So I wanted to provide an update and if anyone wanted to I wouldn't mind ;) hearing of any opinions as a bit of an update in how long they believe it could take me to reach a C1 or C2 from here on. I'm not as desperate for advice as I was back then, a I seem to have built some confidence with the whole exam experience, but some feedback might be nice.

Iguanamon had mentioned that I needed to really shake up my learning methods, and after passing, this seems to be coming about quite naturally in fact. I've shifted gears and I'm reading and listening much more and have pushed courses to one quarter or fifth of my study time. Cavesa, quoted below, seemed to be one of the most realistic and experienced with the French exams, so I thought I'd add her quote in for good measure.

Any thoughts then? I'm aiming for 3 hours a day study rotating through a course, intensive and extensive reading and listening via TV and other resources. My log now has 'target French C1 2018' in the title. Without this being an all out mad race, can I comfortably reach this level in a year or 18 months? I think I can, I feel I can, but I've been wrong before (I used to think I could reach C2 in my first L2 in one year!).

Cavesa wrote:I took both DELF B2 and DALF C2, as Serpent said.

If you passed B1 two years ago, and kept working, it is not unlikely you are beyond B2 now, at least in some skills. It would be worth further consideration. The "can do" self-assessment grid (which is not the short wikipedia cefr definition) is helpful in such situations, so are curricula of coursebooks of the level (sometimes more than the content of these :-D). And you can have get approximate speaking testing for free or cheap at many langauge schools or testing centers. Testing centers are better, or people who trully have experience with the exams. Usual teachers and tutors are only little better than self-assessment.

Assuming you are overall B2 (theory now), you can surely get to C2 reading and listening skills in those several months, if you put in enough time. You could get the active skills there, but that is much more risky, and I'd count with November rather than March.And don't forget that passing the exams requires as well a specific skillset, which is a fact that may be and advantage of yours, or the opposite. It depends on your study style.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby blaurebell » Wed Jun 21, 2017 2:31 pm

In my experience a pretty comfortable level of comprehension is reached after about 10,000 pages and maybe around 500h of audio, and with this I mean native audio - no dubs. In my experience reading is actually more important than listening because the listening part is just recognising the words that you should know from reading, plus a fair bit of slang. In the Dialang test I got higher comprehension scores both reading and listening for French than for Spanish and this makes sense because I've read only 5000 pages extensively in Spanish whereas in French I have read about 9500 pages, 5000 of which were intensive reading. In Spanish I listened to about 500h more than in French and I still got a lower listening score! I don't know what the French C1 exam is like, but the Spanish C1 exam also has different accents in it, so I myself have allotted 150h each for 3 different accents. Cavesa probably knows whether this is the same for French. As for the content for your listening: A wide variety would be good, series, movies, documentaries, lectures, audiobooks. I would assume that you would profit from listening to a lot of France culture for the C1 exam, also because it's audio only.

Now if I do the math for myself it looks like this: I need about 2 minutes a page for French (novels), which means that I can now read 10,000 pages in French in about 333h, so we're talking about 833h assuming that you start from 0, which is not the case. 833h over 365 days amounts to 2.28h a day listening and reading. Since you're not starting from zero, you will probably do just fine at your 2h a day (you're doing 1h courses, 2h input, right?), assuming that your reading speed is comparable to mine. Now if you have already read about 5000 pages then I suggest you do the next 5000 intensively with Learning with texts. It takes a bit longer, but the increase in precision is really substantial, so this is actually very useful. It worked so well for my French that my next 5000 pages in Spanish will definitely happen intensively with LWT. Also, don't forget that reading seems to be more effective than listening. If you feel like you're running out of time, focus on reading! Still try to get at least 150h of pure audio in, podcasts, audiobooks, France culture etc. it's super helpful to stop relying on visual cues.

So, to answer your question: I think you're going to be totally fine :)
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby tarvos » Wed Jun 21, 2017 7:14 pm

Depends on the language. If it's closer to your native tongue or one you already know, it's faster - if not, it takes longer. The biggest difference at these higher levels is that your method needs to really change and that this is quite, quite imperative in order to improve.

I know that I have read plenty of novels in my better languages, and the reason my Mandarin still isn't in the stratosphere yet is because of my lack of reading ability. But in English I've read tons of books, same for Dutch, and I've read quite substantial amounts in French, Spanish, German, Swedish and Russian too. Unsurprisingly, they are my best languages, and also unsurprisingly, I'm sufficiently good at Romanian, Italian, and Portuguese because I've done some reading in those languages as well.

And I'm not talking one or two novels here - but at least 5-10 minimum for most of these (French, a lot more). (And also, plenty of novels of large length - many of my Spanish books were well over 400 pages, many over 500).
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby tarvos » Wed Jun 21, 2017 9:15 pm

Not exclusively. But it works for me.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Cavesa » Wed Jun 21, 2017 10:01 pm

blaurebell wrote:In my experience a pretty comfortable level of comprehension is reached after about 10,000 pages and maybe around 500h of audio, and with this I mean native audio - no dubs.
...
As for the content for your listening: A wide variety would be good, series, movies, documentaries, lectures, audiobooks. I would assume that you would profit from listening to a lot of France culture for the C1 exam, also because it's audio only.


In my experience, it is something like 10000-12000 pages and around 250 hours of audio, including good quality dubs. I think I had half dubs and half native stuff in my SC. But from various examples on the forum, including Blaurebell's experience, it is safe to say a few hundred hours of listening and over 10000 pages. I am curious what numbers will you share with us :-)

As for the content: Variety is great, but it doesn't mean everything is completely necessary. Audiobooks may prove too easy at this level (usually a slow pace, beautiful reading by one trained person with a nice voice), but they are great in some amount, if you like them. And it is ok to lean heavily towards one kind of resources (in my case tv series), and use others more as complements. For example, the variety in my listening were various tv series of various genres, and with various groups of actors (some actors seem to be everywhere it is is even more true about dubbing voice actors). Movies are great, lectures are awesome as they are a different genre, but in some ways similarily too easy just like the audiobooks. Documentaries might be great, but it would depend.

I'd say the main problems of input devouring at this level are:
1.the amount
2.leaving the comfort zone often enough. I think the quest for variety shouldn't lead to using too easy stuff.

You don't necessarily need France culture, sci-fi, fantasy, and detective shows can suffice too :-D

PeterMollenburg wrote:I thought I'd provide a bit of an update to this thread.

Any thoughts then? I'm aiming for 3 hours a day study rotating through a course, intensive and extensive reading and listening via TV and other resources. My log now has 'target French C1 2018' in the title. Without this being an all out mad race, can I comfortably reach this level in a year or 18 months? I think I can, I feel I can, but I've been wrong before (I used to think I could reach C2 in my first L2 in one year!).

I think it is a realistic plan. I am looking forward to reading of your progress. And success!
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby iguanamon » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:30 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:...Any thoughts then? I'm aiming for 3 hours a day study rotating through a course, intensive and extensive reading and listening via TV and other resources. My log now has 'target French C1 2018' in the title. Without this being an all out mad race, can I comfortably reach this level in a year or 18 months? I think I can, I feel I can, but I've been wrong before (I used to think I could reach C2 in my first L2 in one year!)....

A more balanced approach for this level, PM. I'm curious. I don't see any time devoted to a tutor. You seem to have profited from using a tutor in your test preparation. Are you planning on working with a French tutor again at some point? Not that you need one, just curious. I, too, wish you all the best. Looking forward to seeing you be successful again.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jun 22, 2017 1:59 am

Thanks guys for all the responses, all very helpful, cheers.

So to nut out the detail a bit more of my routine it goes like this:

One hour blocks of study (currently 5 separate blocks). The first 10 minutes of each hour is devoted to learning new vocab from an illustrated dictionary or going over words i've written down in a notebook (I rotate these two methods). Then, the following 50 minutes entails the main activity of the 'block'. So the main activities of my five blocks are below, with detail on my processes. Also, no blaurebell, I don't do a course every day, I rotate through these blocks, so that I complete three in one day and continue with the next study block the next day. Thus if I started on block 1 on day one, then I do block 1, block 2 and block 3 on day one, and block 4, block 5 and block 1 on day two and so on, continuing through the rotation.

1. A course.

2. A book (extensive reading). Here I limit myself in terms of lookups with covering more pages the objective. But I'm a slow reader- always have been in my native language too. I've found that I cover around 17 pages max in the 50 minutes. I read every page twice most of the time and I target writing down 2 or three unknown words/terms per session. I read aloud almost always, so there are some lookups for IPA purposes to ensure correct pronunciation.

3. Intensive listening via a TV series. I've just started out using Buffy contre le vampires. I sit the transcript side by side with the TV show itself (ie a webpage showing the transcript, VideoLan showing the TV program- no subtitles). I read and look up every word i'm unfamiliar with. Those I am half familiar with I tend to let go, but do look up the odd one to ensure I was on the right track. So I'll read a paragraph or two of the transcript, then play the audio, read another paragraph or two (oh and lookup uknown words/terms) play the next segment. My aim here, is that in due course I'll be able to listen to a whole episode after having gone through picking it apart first, without looking anything up anymore. It's very slow, but I do a good amount of extensive listening already, so I feel intensive is where I'm lacking.

4. Intensive reading via French learning magazines. Mainly I use Bien-dire, and before anyone says 'oh you should be using just native content'. I'm simply not going to listen to you. These magazines are a huge source of motivation (they are like my current equivalent of courses in terms of motivation). The content is right up my alley, the articles are graded as per CEFR, they have accompanying audio and I feel I am making some big gains with it. They are very decent. I lent a bunch to another French learner around my level, who commented yesterday stating they are really very good and very useful (she said it in a tone that was unexpected), this is coming from a person who learns a lot from reading. I can't recommend this resource enough to French learners, including advanced learners (I subscribe to the advanced version of the now 2 versions- beginner or intermediate to advanced). To put it into perspective, the articles often contain much more complex language and terms than a standard book I might read which is not designed for French learners, but for natives. Each article also contain word lists, so it's a powerful vocabularly expansion tool. The topics vary considerably from fashion, to tourism, to politics, to famous francophone people, to cultural interests such as theatre, art etc, I learn the words in the lists and I read the articles. It saves time, as I don't write down the unknown words, they're already written down in the articles' side columns. Also I rarely look up words, as I figure, that if there are any words which aren't listed in the article's accompanying French-English vocab list (they don't list every single word- only the ones seemingly pertinent to the articles CEFR level) and I don't know it's meaning, i'm sure to cross it's path somewhere else at some point. Furthermore, I'm learning more about the francophone world (mainly France), which helps greatly for cultural insights. The more I can learn of culturally relevant topics, the better off I'll be for joining discussions (or covering exam topics) relevant to the francophone sphere.

5. Yabla.
This is a French (other languages available) online video clip resource. You select videos per level or per genre watch them with or without French and/or English subtitles. It has an inbuilt dictionary, and you can slow the content down, loop it, play games such as fill in the gaps etc. Again, intensive listening, and not a ressource i'm willing to drop since i've a paid subscription.

Thus, i've change from courses perhaps 70% of the time to a course in my routine 20% of my time, and if we add activities I do outside of my 5 blocks listed above which are my alotted 'desk study time', then that 20% drops further as I do do other activities-

I listen to podcasts to and from work, and I watch TV often while getting stuck into my breakfast. That TV is a mixture of Buffy or France 2 French news. Both are extensive (I don't stop them). My podcasts are 99% of the time RFI journal en français facile, which I have time for while at work in a break i'll read the transcript, but this doesn't happen that often. Sometimes I'll print it out and read through it highlighting unknown words and looking them up- then later adding them to my notebook at home.

I have been considering running through Glossika French as well, while commuting, just because I have it, and because while listening to RFI I don't shadow, whereas with Glossika I will (I could split my time between podcasts like RFI and Glossika). I've also added to my 'wasted moments' French while in the shower with the aid of a bluetooth speaker (it's usually the same content as I use during my commutes). Just adds more French time. Thanks whatiftheblog for this idea! Also, I was listening to further French of various types while kayaking, but as it's winter now, and as I got tired of driving 25 minutes to a decent waterway, I've now gone back to cycling, with which currently i'm reluctant to listen to audio during for safely reasons mainly, although I may attempt it down the track on the off chance the French audio still allows me to hear ambiant noise (the roads are quiet, but in the end a car is a car).

So, now I have a more diverse study routine with a mix of course material, intensive and extensive reading, intensive and extensive listening.

I've no idea how many pages I've read. Does this SC display this? I think it does.. of course it does! I just still cannot gain access to the leaderboard to check my pages read column. I would be nowhere near 10,000. At a complete guess, I may have read 1000 or 2000 pages of French in the last couple of years (including a lot of content outside the SC), but I could be vastly under or overstimating there.

Edit: Tutors? I do play to utilise one- I had an excellent tutor in the lead up to the B2, I'm going to employ her again (and likely some others), but not for a while yet. I got 99% of the way without one, so again I'll make my way on my own 99% of the time on my own, then perhaps in the months leading up to the exam, i'll dive in. I scored 23.5/25 in the speaking component of the exam, my highest score for any section. I don't discount the value of a tutor, nor do I think that just because of a good score I can therefore ignore speaking practise as they have nothing to offer as I don't believe that. Additionally, if I had more time and money i'd have a tutor reguarly, but, right now it's not a priority and it's something I can afford to put aside for a while, imho.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Ani » Thu Jun 22, 2017 4:22 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:I've now gone back to cycling, with which currently i'm reluctant to listen to audio during for safely reasons mainly, although I may attempt it down the track on the off chance the French audio still allows me to hear ambiant noise (the roads are quiet, but in the end a car is a car).

I like this plan. It seems very "you" but more diverse than before, and there are no beginner courses :D You are lacking writing.. but otherwise..

Have you thought about clipping a blue tooth speaker to your bike? Depending on where you ride, it might work but not block other sounds. Not so much if there is other city noise though.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu Jun 22, 2017 12:25 pm

Ani wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:I've now gone back to cycling, with which currently i'm reluctant to listen to audio during for safely reasons mainly, although I may attempt it down the track on the off chance the French audio still allows me to hear ambiant noise (the roads are quiet, but in the end a car is a car).

I like this plan. It seems very "you" but more diverse than before, and there are no beginner courses :D You are lacking writing.. but otherwise..

Have you thought about clipping a blue tooth speaker to your bike? Depending on where you ride, it might work but not block other sounds. Not so much if there is other city noise though.


Thanks Ani for the positive feedback. You're right, writing is missing, but I do write here and there. Mind you it's not a dedicated activity that I do regularly but it does occur in small amounts. Perhaps it's something to add later, but i'll delay it for a while. It was second strongest section on the exam with 21/25.

It's odd how my speaking and writing were the strongest, yet they are my least practised skills (at least with natives - I speak to my daughter only in French as you know, that must count for something, but it's nothing like native feedback).

I think my intense study through course work and recognition of sound - IPA and ensuring I know how to pronounce everything, goes a long way for aiding spelling.

At the end of the day, the insane amount of hours I've done is probably what has really helped all in all, I've just remained consistent and put in the volume in terms of hours, perhaps this is what enables me to not pay as much attention to certain skills as others, since the total hours is huge in the end, and if anyone else were to put in that time, they'd likely be as good as me or much better even in whatever language it is that fancies them. It's no miracle that's for sure.

Edit: A speaker (bluetooth or otherwise) on my bike doesn't sit well for me. I'd have to turn it up too much (wind noise plays a pretty big role), and broadcasting to the countryside isn't something i'd like. Still I might try it once or twice just for the hell of it, as you never know, I might be pleasantly surprised. We'll see!
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Sun Nov 12, 2017 8:28 am

I’ve been reading back through this thread yet again as its full of really great advice.

Since passing DELF B2 around 6 months ago in May, I’ve barely advanced. A year has almost passed since I started this thread, and although B2 has been conquered, C1 still feels tantalizingly close yet impossibly far, just beyond reach (reminds me of an old NBA slam dunks video). So I’m resetting yet again, and when I get back from holiday in a week, the very serious drive to C1 recommences with more serious focus than ever. I’m quoting myself below from my own log. Yet again i’m revamping my routine in a desperate attempt to thrust myself forward like the fate of the human race depends on it. Too much stagnation for too long. Here’s the most earth shattering post you’ll ever read:

PeterMollenburg wrote:A little more dribbly waffle... mmmm waffles... no PM pas de sucre pour toi !

----------------------------------
Three to four hours/day :
------
A course:
(advanced grammar, prononciation)
• Assimil Using French
-----------
Extensive reading:
(immersion, fluidity)
• Easy French reader/ bilingual reader
• A book
-----------
Listening:
(The real language)
• Yabla
• Buffy with transcripts
-----------
Intensive reading
(vocabulary)
• Bien-dire
• Think French
----------------------------------

The above is nothing new (a four hour rotation of hour blocks of study). Each hour will include ten to 15 minutes of vocabularly study, and therefore each activity listed above really won’t be an hour but 45 or 50 mins.

The difference here, hopefully is synergy (a mix of focuses) and in particular consistency of at least 3 hours dedicated study every day - I’ve given myself a time limit, which I’m hoping will make a big difference. I’m actually going to sit the C1 in Nov 2018, rain, hail, sun or raging storm. I need to push on as time waits for no-one, and I’ve decided progress is more important than idiotic behaviour.

My wife and I had a chat about our future plans, money, work, family, languages, to get a clear indication of where we’re headed and how to get there. One conclusion was that I ought to work harder, smarter, more efficiently on my French, as I can’t be doing only French forever if I’m to make room for other languages in the not-so-distant future. Hence, the time limit and the routine. I’ll kick it off the day after we get back.
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