Confusing grammar point from French Assimil, 2022

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Cainntear
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Re: Confusing grammar point from French Assimil, 2022

Postby Cainntear » Thu Feb 22, 2024 12:13 pm

Adrianslont wrote:
Dragon27 wrote:
Cainntear wrote:In English, is there really any common usage where "all" functions as a pronoun? It seems a bit archaic (if not totally wrong) to actually say "all are ..."

Specifically, common usage where "all" stands for multiple persons, not really, I believe. "Everybody" (and variations) is used instead. The other example in the wiktionary is "A good time was had by all". Can't think of any example where "all" is the (sole) subject with the meaning "everybody", it's much easier when "all" means things, not people (wiktionary, again "All that was left was a small pile of ash").
But the traditional translation of the famous motto "Unus pro omnibus, omnes pro uno" (whose French version "Tous pour un, un pour tous" was made popular by Alexandre Dumas) is "One for all, all for one".


“All are expected to attend the …”
“All are welcome”
“All are examples of … »

Everybody is more common and more modern but all as a pronoun doesn’t seem wrong or archaic to me - but I am not young.

Well I'm no spring chicken myself, it's just that I was hearing "all are welcome" in a booming theatrical voice in my head, like a king or wizard.
Your first example "All are expected..." kind of fits with a general pattern of "officialese" retaining forms that have dropped out of colloquial usage (eg. institional rules saying people you "must" do certain things rather than "you have to" or "you've got to")
Your last one is the one that makes me stop, though.

My conclusion, though, is that it falls into the same group as the "officialese": high register language. I probably wouldn't write it myself in a university essay (preferring "these are all examples of..." or "all of these are examples of...") but I probably wouldn't bat an eyelid if it appeared in a paper I was reading.
...and that leads to the point that "all of these" still could be argued as having "all" as a noun/pronoun because of the "of". However, I would argue that "all" there functions as a quantifier: cf. some of these, many of these, three of these, one of these.

Whether "all" is a pronoun or not is arguably pretty subjective. But I'd say it's pretty clear that "all" is at the very least migrating away from being a pronoun.

In fact, I think the biggest issue is that there has historically been a tendancy to try to categorise words into classes in absolute black-and-white terms. Modern linguistics is happy to recognise that words can exist that straddle class boundaries and can function as two or more classes in a fuzzy manner.
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Re: Confusing grammar point from French Assimil, 2022

Postby Granrey » Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:24 pm

warrigalgreen wrote:
L1 … parce qu’ils sont tous risqués.
[toos]
L5 Je regarde tous les journaux…
[too]

L12 Je suis comme tous les joueurs ; nous avons tous la même idée.
[too] [toos]




I'll try to explain with examples in a different way

L1
Parce qu' il est tout risque. = Because it is fully dangerous

Parce qu' ils sont touts risques.= Because they are all dangerous.

L5
Je regarde tout le journal= I saw (read/searched in) the entire newspaper

je regarde touts les journaux= I saw (read/searched in) all the news paper.

We could similar with L12 (i leave it to you to figure it out).

But if you notice "tout" refers to the entirety of something while "touts" refers to a collection of things.


Another example is "I searched the entire office" vs " I searched all the offices"
tout= entire office, while touts= all offices. Even in english the first case is singular while the second is plural.
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Re: Confusing grammar point from French Assimil, 2022

Postby tastyonions » Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:45 pm

It should be “tous” in your examples, not “touts.”

“Touts” is only ever used as the plural of the common noun “un tout” (= a whole, a unity, e.g. “former un tout”), never to pluralize the adjective or pronoun “tout.”
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Re: Confusing grammar point from French Assimil, 2022

Postby jeffers » Mon Feb 26, 2024 8:53 pm

warrigalgreen wrote:tous is the masculine plural of the adjective tout. Placed before a noun, it is pronounced [too], … But if it comes after a verb, it means all of you/them/everyone and is pronounced [toos].

But the examples on this page both directly follow the verb:

L1 … parce qu’ils sont tous risqués.
[toos]
L5 Je regarde tous les journaux…
[too]

So I thought, maybe they mean it’s [too] before a noun.
But then on the following page there is this example where tous is pronounced [toos] before a noun:

L12 Je suis comme tous les joueurs ; nous avons tous la même idée.
[too] [toos]


I honestly wasn't sure where the confusion is coming from in this second sentence.
Je suis comme (tous les joueurs) <-- tous goes with joueurs, so it's an example of being placed "before a noun".
(nous avons tous) la même idée. <-- tous goes with nous, and follows the verb avons.

Here's the good news, I could not remember the rule, if I ever learnt it when I worked on Assimil. But when I read the sentences first before looking at your prompts I read them correctly. Yes, these sorts of things are governed by rules, but with enough exposure it becomes obvious even if you don't know the rule.

(Edited to add brackets around the groups of words the two tous go with).
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