The immersion only approach

[Ccaesar]

How many of you have tried the immersion and input only approach? I find it hard to understand how forcing yourself through content which you don't understand at all should suddenly make you fluent, yet I keep seeing youtubers promoting it as the one true way.

What are peoples' opinions and experiences?

[fromaalborg1]

- It seems like a bad idea to disregard the learning material made for beginners, when you are a beginner.

- Focus is on "enjoying" native video content, but they also want you to cut the subtitles. This takes away my enjoyment, so, odd.

- I am impressed that the advocates can convince people to "trust the process", especially with a difficult language for English speakers such as Japanese.


(My impressions comes from watching “Matt vs Japan”-YT-videos, which I like!)

[jeff_lindqvist]

[...]forcing yourself through content which you don't understand at all should suddenly make you fluent[...]

Actually, I think it's the opposite - immersion/"input only" works better if you do understand some of the content, but don't speak the language, e.g. a Spanish speaker in a Portuguese/Catalan/Galician/etc immersion (even input only) setting.

Such an idea has been presented before - see this old HTLAL post (from the topic Slavic Family Learning Sequence):
"If I was to draw a conclusion, I would say that 100 hours of listening to a language is a solid foundation upon which to build your knowledge, provided you already have a decent command of a Slavic language." (last post on page 7)

[tastyonions]

I'm trying to think of someone who truly advocates immersion only. Even AJATT encouraged people to use spaced repetition software. So does Matt vs Japan. Do any of these folks say you should never use learner materials, or rather do they say that they should make up only a small fraction of your input?

[fromaalborg1]

I forgot to mention, what I think is the worst idea floating around in the immersion community: that you should deliberately delay speaking. This includes avoiding classrooms (which I think can be great for socialising, among other things). Somehow this is suppose to make it easier to gain a native-like accent. By not practicing it.

[einzelne]

Immersion experiences, where only the language is used, have great pay-offs in morale, motivation, perception of skill, and stamina in using the language. They appear to have the greatest payoff above the S-2 level. Despite what some published research has indicated, for example Brecht, Davidson, and Ginsberg (1993), our experience is that in-country immersion is most effective where the learner is at higher levels of proficiency.

Lessons learned from fifty years of theory and practice in government language teaching

PS. S/R-2 Limited working proficiency: Able to satisfy routine social and limited office needs and to read short typewritten or printed straightforward texts.

[Dragon27]

Somehow this is suppose to make it easier to gain a native-like accent. By not practicing it.

That sounds like a (deliberately?) unfair framing. You can make a skill easier to develop by practicing related skills that support it without practicing the skill directly. It might be the case that trying to develop some skill unprepared can lead to unwanted errors in execution that can be more difficult to rectify if you didn't take care of them in advance.

[Sae]

Immersion is good.
Immersion only, I'm not so sure about. I mean, I expect it works to some level but I cannot see it being efficient. We do with out first language but we don't learn the same way for our second.

I think comprehensive input is a good middle ground and I mean more in the sense of what people like Matt va Japan & Olly Richards put out, rather than pure Stephen Krashen. Heck, something liek Refold is maybe worth checking out because it doesn't treat grammar & vocab as a swear word and even provides Anki decks, but still encourages a lot of input and immersing yourself in content. Though it does promote a delaying your speech, but with the ideas that you'll find it easier to get correct pronunciation after enough exposure rather than picking up bad habits straight away. But I mean, you can still ignore that part & take what's useful, especially if speech helps you internalise whart you've learned.

But if somebody is telling you there's a "one true way" then take it as a red flag.

[fromaalborg1]

Somehow this is suppose to make it easier to gain a native-like accent. By not practicing it.

That sounds like a (deliberately?) unfair framing. You can make a skill easier to develop by practicing related skills that support it without practicing the skill directly. It might be the case that trying to develop some skill unprepared can lead to unwanted errors in execution that can be more difficult to rectify if you didn't take care of them in advance.

Yes, as I understand it, you are suppose to develop your listening skills to a high level, and then start speaking. This is to avoid "fossilized" errors.
I think it is a bad advice, partly because "a native-like accent" is an advanced goal, not relevant for most hobbyist. And secondly, if you really care about you end-pronunciation-result as a beginner, I don't think "fossilized" errors will be a problem, should you reach an advanced level. Because you are paying attention.

[Dragon27]

I think it is a bad advice, partly because "a native-like accent" is an advanced goal, not relevant for most hobbyist.

Good pronunciation is a useful end goal for most hobbyists.

And secondly, if you really care about you end-pronunciation-result as a beginner, I don't think "fossilized" errors will be a problem, should you reach an advanced level. Because you are paying attention.

Some fossilized errors can be easy to weed out, some may require a large concerted effort that could have been avoided by not developing the bad habits in the first place.
Whether the advice is bad or good depends on each individual's personal goals and circumstances. Some people delay speaking (out of fear of spoiling their chance to achieve perfection) when their circumstances give them lots of opportunities for speaking, other people are just naturally in the circumstances where they would have to go out of their way to find some speaking practice (so they don't "delay", they just don't push).
How well does the advice actually works is something that only research could tell.