How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby luke » Wed Dec 01, 2021 12:44 am

I found Anki to be more useful than the Spanish Frequency Dictionary I have in paper form.

They have a couple for German too.

This one has 5000 words:

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/912352287
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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby einzelne » Wed Dec 01, 2021 2:45 am

I used only Routledge Frequency Dictionaries because I know I can trust them.

I never start with them immediately. First, I would go through some textbook (usually Assimil + some grammar book) and read a bunch of adapted texts (with audio). Then, when I start reading unadapted texts, I would usually add a frequency dictionary.

At this stage I already know about 2-3k words (not to mention a firm grasp of grammar and phonetics). So I would go though the book, highlighting unknown words. So, you go through the first 10 pages, or so. Next day, you repeat the words from these 10 pages and go through other N pages. Then you add another N pages and so on. The number N varies, depending on your initial vocabulary and the number of cognates, but generally the further you go into the book the less number of pages you will be able to cover.

I trained passive recognition only.

You can make flashcards from unknown words but I was too lazy. Besides you will get enough exposure of the first 5k words anyways if you continue to read unadapted books. It's after 5k when the things become tricker (That's why, I think, Routledge stops at 5k, because after that you have a long tail of lower frequency words with basically the same weight and that's why it is better to expand your vocabulary by simply reading texts and reviewing new words in the areas you're interested in).
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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby german2k01 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 8:39 am

Thanks for sharing your thoughts. It was helpful. Yes, I am at a stage of language learning that I can easily recognize over 2-3K words in German. I am going to use these books just to check which words are still unknown and try to retain them with Anki. I can easily copy and paste sentences from the Linguee dictionary for those unknown words.
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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby german2k01 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 3:09 pm

luke wrote:I found Anki to be more useful than the Spanish Frequency Dictionary I have in paper form.

They have a couple for German too.

This one has 5000 words:

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/912352287


Thanks Luke. This is really a well-made deck.
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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Dec 01, 2021 4:35 pm

german2k01 wrote:I am trying to figure out how to retain these words in my long-term memory.

By using them and by 'seeing' them. That's the short answer.

Since I don't believe in 'methods' for learning vocabulary, there is a bit of shotgun activity going on. I think Anki is good for repeated exposure, but that you don't learn the words by only being exposed to them on Anki. They (or a good deal of them) enter your memory and you recognise them elsewhere or they are recalled when you find yourself needing to express something. Speaking, but also writing helps with the latter.

Who knows what specific approach works for a particular person? I do a lot of things. I peruse frequency dictionaries (sometimes I get bored) and also normal dictionaries and other wordlists. My goal is usually specific though: harvesting useful words/phrases. Right now in Spanish I have made wordlists of 'linking phrases' - the sort of thing like: 'once and for all'... 'as it may appear'... 'at any rate'...'for all that'...'as agreed'. Especially if they are idiomatic. The groups are relatively small - 10-20 entries. I have five of these loaded into Anki right now and they're being drilled. I remove them as they become embedded in my memory.

It also means I must read/listen at the same time so that I increase chances that I encounter these things. Off-the-cuff. The 'eurekas' of those moments tend to splash indelible ink on your memory. Same goes for all vocabulary learning. You generally have to see them 'in the field' multiple times before they register.

Now, I'm also cognisant of the fact that one can't predict what is and isn't going to be 'useful'. There's going to be thousands of single words and a few thousands combinations as phrases. So the frequency dictionary is a good stab in the direction required. Dismantle it into pieces and conquer the pieces. It's like an hourglass...all those grains dribbling through only a tiny opening! Yet before you know it they're all on the other side!
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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby german2k01 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 5:53 pm

By using them and by 'seeing' them. That's the short answer.

Since I don't believe in 'methods' for learning vocabulary, there is a bit of shotgun activity going on. I think Anki is good for repeated exposure, but that you don't learn the words by only being exposed to them on Anki. They (or a good deal of them) enter your memory and you recognise them elsewhere or they are recalled when you find yourself needing to express something. Speaking, but also writing helps with the latter.


Of course, I do a lot of listening and reading on the side. I even got a weekend job so that I could engage with water and get some speaking done. I am trying to memorize words via Anki so that I can recognize them elsewhere. Reviewing words via Anki only accounts for 30-45 minutes a day. Speaking also exposes my weak spots, for example, certain thoughts I could express clearly but others I could not during a conversation.

I have a question for you. If you are reading a "physical" book; you underline words on a page; you look them up in a dictionary. After reading the book in its entirety, what exactly do you do with those unknown words? Do you review them via Anki?
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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby Le Baron » Wed Dec 01, 2021 6:48 pm

german2k01 wrote:Speaking also exposes my weak spots, for example, certain thoughts I could express clearly but others I could not during a conversation.

Yes, it'll probably be like that for a while. It'll get better. Sometimes this happens while you're not noticing it. There'll be a time when you end up in a conversation where a lot of all your hard work will pay off and you'll come out of it dizzy, but happy.

german2k01 wrote:I have a question for you. If you are reading a "physical" book; you underline words on a page; you look them up in a dictionary. After reading the book in its entirety, what exactly do you do with those unknown words? Do you review them via Anki?

Good question. I never underline things in books because I consider it vandalism! However I do write down very slippery words that have come up more than once because it signals it might be one I need. I also tend to scan the chapter I'm about to read for words that stand out to me as unknown.

After finishing the book I may have about three pages of words and I'll look them all up and consider how much I might need them. In literature there are a lot of words that are just synonyms of regular words. They're nice and literary, but the fact is you might not really need them right now. I file them away for later (if ever). Paring-down that list, yes they often go into Anki. I've made lists related to particular books I think I'm going to re-read, which I then review as I'm re-readig the book. After all I know I'm going to encounter them in use context. Which is quite valuable.
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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby Herodotean » Wed Dec 01, 2021 7:26 pm

german2k01 wrote:
luke wrote:I found Anki to be more useful than the Spanish Frequency Dictionary I have in paper form.

They have a couple for German too.

This one has 5000 words:

https://ankiweb.net/shared/info/912352287


Thanks Luke. This is really a well-made deck.


Apparently this German deck was created from the second edition of the German Routledge Frequency Dictionary, the series einzelne mentioned. From Amazon reviews I gather that the first edition did not have translations of the example sentences, but the second edition does.
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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby german2k01 » Wed Dec 01, 2021 10:56 pm

Paring-down that list, yes they often go into Anki. I've made lists related to particular books I think I'm going to re-read, which I then review as I'm re-readig the book. After all I know I'm going to encounter them in use context. Which is quite valuable.


Why do you like to re-read the same book again? Shouldn't you spend the same time reading a different book? And, do you follow any specific time lags between books you would like to read it again? Let's say if you finish reading a book today, when will you like to visit it again?
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Re: How do you Study "Frequency Dictionary Books"?

Postby Le Baron » Thu Dec 02, 2021 12:09 am

german2k01 wrote:Why do you like to re-read the same book again? Shouldn't you spend the same time reading a different book? And, do you follow any specific time lags between books you would like to read it again? Let's say if you finish reading a book today, when will you like to visit it again?

Perhaps if I feel I liked the book and felt it has lots of useful language. Or if I think I haven't really grasped some things, but could. It's rarely a case of finishing it then immediately restarting it, but making up the lists which go into Anki, which I'll then be running through. Then at some point I'll re-read the book and I find it's easier second time around since most of the unfamiliar words are now familiar. Sometimes I forget and don't read it for months; sometimes not at all.

This is only when I read a book and find it has presented problems. I then decide to use it as a direct learning opportunity, more in-depth. A lot of books I just read through, look up a few words, note some phrases and then I'm done. Plus the slimmer, lighter books I read for pleasure in bed I just read. There's no iron regimen.
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