from Reddit: "Resources that you should(usually) avoid like the plague(and why)"

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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby jeffers » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:27 am

kanewai wrote:These articles are super frustrating; they take "what worked for me once" and turn it into "rules for everybody."


This is a good example of what's wrong with social media: you get likes and reshares by writing one-sided points of view, not from nuanced discussion that requires some thought. Even when articles like this give "both sides", the analysis is shallow and overly brief (like this post :lol: ).
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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby Gordafarin2 » Fri Jul 23, 2021 11:22 am

SRS is not suited for everyone, and there are as many ways to learn languages as there are people learning. So I wouldn't want to get into an argument with the person who wrote this guide and has already decided that Anki isn't for them.

That being said... Some of their criticisms reflect a suboptimal usage of SRS.

If it feels like it's too repetitive, and you're tired of seeing the same word over and over again, your intervals are probably too short. I keep my interval modifier quite high so that after a few reviews, I'm not seeing a card very often at all unless I start failing it.

Single-word flashcards with one word on each side don't give enough context to reflect the real usage of the word? I agree entirely. So give your flashcards some context! No connection to real-world material? Take your flashcard material from native sources and that isn't a problem.

"Anki is not tolerable for more than a few minutes" - I do my reviews in 5-minute chunks scattered throughout my day. I rarely spend more than 20 minutes on my Anki daily, never all at once, and that's reviewing 5 languages.

And echoing the notion that Anki/SRS is just a small slice of my study plan. I've been tracking my learning time lately, and Anki is only about 10% of my study time. And even when I'm not studying as intensively, keeping up with Anki means I am doing at least *something* in every language, every day - even when I'm travelling, even when I'm totally busy or exhausted, there will always be a minute or two that I can open my phone and go through some reviews.
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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby Iversen » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:02 pm

The resources I avoid like a plague are those that are organized as complete learning systems - especially if they cost money. I prefer to piece my own materials together, and apart from grammar books and dictionaries I don't like to spend money on learning materials.

As for SRS I haven't used systems like Anki or Mnemosyne. There is a certain amount of repetitions built into my wordlist system, but there I can always refer to a whole collection of words chosen by myself - I don't like the idea of having to accept that a machine poses ME questions, it should be the other way round!
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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby kanewai » Fri Jul 23, 2021 10:10 pm

rdearman wrote:You don't need SRS to learn vocabulary and you don't need a washing machine to clean clothes. But they make it a lot easier.

:D
To push the metaphor even further ... you can probably figure out how to use the washing machine on your own, even if it's a foreign brand where all the buttons have symbols that you've never seen before, but you'll figure it out faster if you read the manual.
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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby sfuqua » Sat Jul 24, 2021 6:16 pm

Another point is that the experience of using SRS depends on the quality of the material one is using for SRS deck. I have used useless anki decks (I have made a few). If you can get or make a deck that matches what actually want to learn, it is magic.
It is far from a complete solution for langauge learning, of course...
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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby Lisa » Sat Jul 24, 2021 9:37 pm

I know not everyone likes anki/srs (and I don't understand why people don't like anchovies on their pizza, either, or doesn't like kale. They are delicious.)

And unrealistic expectations of tool/program/whatever is probably the single worst problem with language learning. And many other things in life.

But Anki is the COMPLETE reason that I am now a "language learner" (well, sort of in phase 2, now that I'm not traveling and really have no need for languages), for my two false-beginner languages (so far). Reading books with a paper dictionary was always a miserable grind that I gave up on; dual language books and learner books with vocab lists, paper workbooks, learn-in-your-car audio lessons, all just never worked for me; I used to try something every year or two. Discovered Anki: within a remarkably few weeks I am reading. It's not a complete solution, obviously! But it solved my blocking problem.

I wouldn't try to tell anyone else that Anki will solve their problems like it did mine.. but it's stupid and unhelpful to dismiss tools like this, and obviously, I wouldn't rely on anything else this person might have to say.

Same with duolingo - I don't like it, myself, but for anyone that does (and has realistic expectations), more power to them!
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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby Sumisu » Sun Jul 25, 2021 3:56 am

sfuqua wrote:Another point is that the experience of using SRS depends on the quality of the material one is using for SRS deck. I have used useless anki decks (I have made a few). If you can get or make a deck that matches what actually want to learn, it is magic.
It is far from a complete solution for langauge learning, of course...


This is an important point. I avoided SRS for years because my initial experience was just seeing a single word on cards made by someone else and trying to recall it. It didn't work. Everything changed when I started making my own cards, although I'm still refining my techniques, and will hopefully continue refining them in the future.

I would put SRS somewhere between the "safety" of a textbook, and the complete freedom/chaos of just reading/listening extensively without following a formal course or book. Steve Kaufman (who does not use SRS) often says that learners acquire the language by means of massive exposure through reading and listening. In my opinion, one of the best ways to get this exposure is through SRS. I do about an hour of reading a day in my target language (e.g. newspapers, books), but almost every day I am surprised by some of the words that Anki shows me: words that I haven't seen in months in my "normal" reading; phrases that I'd nearly forgotten but am now really happy to see again, thanks to the SRS. It really can be like magic.
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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby Iversen » Sun Jul 25, 2021 8:24 am

I have never used SRS or flashcards, but I recognize the problem with sources of sneakily varying quality from my experience with dictionaries - most clearly the Latin ones. I have bought Gyldendals Latin-Danish dictionary long ago and then added the one in the opposite direction. But that didn't function, and it is one of the very few cases where I have thrown a dictionary away. The point is that most times when I looked something up it wasn't found there, and I suspect that the reason is that it was compiled by inversing the direction of Latin-Danish direction, not by taking the things a modern learner might be interested in expressing. Luckily I own a 'New College' English-Latin bidirectional dictionary which doesn't suffer from the same problem.

There is a related problem with some of my other dictionaries, namely those that they were intended for use by speakers of my target languages, and therefore they lack elementary information about those languages, but provide it for the languages I already know. Grammars written for people who already speak a certain languages may also take things for granted which definitely aren't granted. And you may not see the flaws when you buy the book, but only when you try to work with it.
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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby rdearman » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:57 am

Can I also point out that Anki does audio and pictures? So it isn't just text. I use it with clips from movies or audio from native speakers to hear pronunciation. But you know, whatever floats your boat.
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Re: RESOURCES THAT YOU SHOULD (usually) AVOID LIKE THE PLAGUE (and why)

Postby Cavesa » Sun Jul 25, 2021 10:07 pm

I am not sure how did this random text deserve to be seriously discussed, as if it was an article by a researcher, or a document by a very successful learner. This is neither. I haven't read all of it, because it is honestly not worth it imho. I have no doubts there will be some good bits, but mixed together with weird stuff, and the whole thing should not be taken for a serious guide by an authority.

Before I address some of the mentioned issues: I have noticed this person repeatedly on reddit, we've disagreed on some things, especially when they were spreading something I considered myths and nonsense, or when it was a valid opinion presented as if it was a universal truth. They don't tolerate well disagreement and consider themselves an authority just because they are a medschool student with a not that bad level in Spanish (but as far as I've read, they don't seem to have reached a too high level either). They even sent me some very patronising chat messages, trying to give me advice on how to not provoke people or not make them dislike me or something, it was rather weird. :-D Not trying to brag, but it is rather funny that this person tries to treat ME like a dumb newbie that attacks their authority :-D A quick look in their post history showed some interesting patterns, that made me take them even less seriously.

Now to some of the points:

-the false dichotomies are very typical of this person. It's not pure SRSers vs. pure readers. And this is not the only example by far.

-there are tons of assumptions like "a limited number of cards". Well, I'd agree with some of the points, if we were talking about decks of 50 words. I highly doubt they've ever tried decks of several thousand words. (plus the argument "you don't see all the types of context" is stupid, as it is based on the already mentioned false dichotomy).

-"because when we speak our mother tongues, that’s how things work" and a few more notes about that. If they really are a medschool student, they have surely been told "children are not small adults" many times already. So, it is weird they cannot see that there are huge differences between a baby and child learning their L1, and an adult L2 learner. And all this is in a rather weird context, full of assumptions (contrary to their claims, I've learnt stuff just from SRS at times. It's better to learn from other sources, or srs+other sources, but it is possible to just learn a word from a simple srs card too and use it correctly. Many words are not really that mysterious)

-this might be the first medschool student to ever be so fiercely against the SRS. :-D Usually, people either don't know it, or they don't like it while recognizing some of the benefits, or they use it. But this is the first time I see a medschool student claim SRS to be so evil :-D
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No need to copy tons of your posts, I totally agree almost everything said in the thread.
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sirgregory wrote:He also says to avoid most of the common apps and programs.

MOST language learning apps/programs by major companies - Major ones include apps like Duolingo, Babbel, Rosetta Stone, Pimsleur, Michel Thomas Method….

When you calculate the number of words you would learn by completing the courses on these apps/programs, it is usually equivalent to reaching a CEFR A2 level…. For the time (and sometimes money) invested, it’s a rip off. You could probably do that in about 2-7 days’ time of easy study that’s really not very time-intensive or difficult. And you want to spend months and possibly pay money for something you could do on your own in a few days?

A2 in 2 days of "easy study"?

Avoiding various such programs might actually be one of the few good grains in the whole narcissic project, but only to some extent. Again, I would trust Iguanamon here, that the recommendation to avoid these should definitely not be absolute. After all, we have a few successful learners in the community, who found even ways to incorporate the Rosetta Stone in a rare language routine in a way that made sense (and that's an achievement!).

And secondly, they are a medschool student (by their own claims), and not too clear about whether they want to target a public with a similar approach to studying, or normal learners. They are talking about the vocabulary for A2, not taking into account stuff like grammar, pronunciation training, comprehension exercises etc. Back in medschool, I once learnt over 2000 terms for my Medical English exam over a weekend. It was not pleasant, it was definitely not a new language. But it was still vocab I had mostly not known or been able to use before, and have been using since.

So, I agree that learning A2 vocabulary is possible in two days, if it is not in a totally distant language, if you use a flashcard or similar program (or a low tech alternative that will however be not that different), and if you take the "easy study" term with a grain of salt. (It will be easy study, but only if you compare it to some of the hellish exams in medschool). :-D

Overall, you see that this person may have some interesting opinions and experiences, but that's all it is.
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Axon wrote:If you knew Afrikaans, German, and English, you might have a fighting chance at scraping a pass on an A2 test in Dutch with two days to focus on core differences. Outside of that, though ... this person may not know A2 that well.


Definitely true. Especially the second part. It is a bit weird, that the person writing a guide probably hasn't reached C2 in any language yet, and often shows lack of understanding of rather important stuff in the discussions. Given how much they avoid a lot of resources, that are actually based on teaching this level, they may simply not have a clue.
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