Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

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PeterMollenburg
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Wed May 15, 2019 11:33 pm

StringerBell wrote:PM, I just wanted to make a suggestion since I've been going through a similar should I, shouldn't I? with regards to SRSing the new voabularly I come across while reading.

What I've been doing lately with the really useful vocabulary/expressions I've collected is to start trying to actively use them myself. When I'm able to do it, I'm finding it much more effective than Anki in terms of me being able to then use those words later on. What I'm seeing so far is that it takes more time up front, so it feels like I'm making less progress because I can't cover as many words as I could in a quick Anki review, but the words I do focus on I really remember, so it seems to be more effective. When I was using Anki, I was always thinking "I know I made an Anki card for this" but then most of the time couldn't summon that word during a conversation.

I'm still in the initial phases, but basically this is what I'm doing:

For Polish: I collected a list of useful expressions, sentences, or new vocabulary and I'm doing scriptorium with them. I'm writing out each one 5x while saying it out loud, then saying it out loud a few times at normal speed, and then I do scriptorium with these same ones multiple times over the next week. Many of these are now firmly rooted in my head, and I feel like I have easy access to them when I want to speak or write.

For Italian: I'm now rereading a novel I just finished and making a list of new vocabulary and expressions and writing out every sentence that contains a subjunctive. Instead of putting the vocab into Anki, I'm copying down example sentences from Reverso Context with each new word, then I'm creating my own sentences (either written or spoken) using those new words and having a native speaker (husband) verify that I'm not saying nonsense. The act of using the words actively - and more than once - is really making me feel like they're mine.

If you like Anki, then I don't want to try to dissuade you from using it, but if you're not particularly looking forward to it, there are some other options. I'm sure there's even better ideas out there than what I have to offer, but so far I'm really enjoying it much more than flashcard reviews.


Thanks StringerBell,

Your suggestions are good, thank you. And it’s led me to consider a couple of things, the first more along the lines of my own thinking but also around SRS, the second based on your suggestions.

In my four hour-long blocks of study, only one of them doesn’t have the 15 minutes of initial SRS before going onto the 45 minutes of whatever that hour of study entails. That one hour is the extensive reading hour. I had considered adding 15 min SRS to that hour as well, thereby reducing the actual extensive reading time to 45 minutes. However, I felt that that’s moving in the wrong direction for someone who has perfectionist tendencies and really needs to be immersed much more than I have been when studying up to this point.

Thus, I decided if I study 15 min of SRS in the hour, it means I have to add words to my SRS deck in that 45 minutes of study that follows. Conversely, if I don’t do 15 minutes initially of SRS study, then I can do the full hour of that hour’s activity without adding new cards/words/expressions to SRS. Thus, last night I only read for an hour, without SRS and thus did not add any new cards, since the objective is really to cover as much ground as I can.

In my intensive reading/vocabulary hour last night I also skipped the SRS and just went thoroughly over the word lists then read the articles and went over word lists. Again by not adding new words to SRS, I was ‘permitted’ to do a full hour of intensive reading/vocab (minus any SRS study).

I think I will keep adding some cards to SRS in my intensive listening (watching Buffy) hour, thus 15min SRS study, 45 min of intensive listening (and adding cards). In time, I hope to eliminate 15 min of SRS in this hour as well, thus the hour will become extensive listening, with perhaps the occasional reference to a transcript and/or dictionary.

In short. If I don’t add cards to SRS during that study hour, there’s not need to do SRS in that hour. This way I can justify more extensive study and justify pushing forward, while avoiding being too bogged down in detail.

On your suggestions of using the language, I think I’m building a mental picture of how my hour of writing will look. Iguanamon suggested summarising episodes that I watch, and with your idea I could even refer back to the word lists in my magazines (intensive reading) and my flashcards as well and attempt to use the words in my writings. Thanks for the excellent idea StringerBell! I aim to add my writing hour within a month of having started this new study routine.

Right now I’m rather doubtful of reaching C2 by November, but hey if I don’t try I certainly won’t get there, so I’ll keep pushing forward.

Yesterday was an improvement on the day before. Yesterday I upped the ‘desk study hours’ to 3, which is my target, while I managed to squeeze in 45 minutes of podcasts commuting to and from work and 15 minutes of reading to the kids, thus 4 hours in total. And I’m doing this in the evenings, a time I’ve struggled majorly in the past to sit down and study, this time, i’m just doing it!
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby StringerBell » Thu May 16, 2019 12:17 am

PeterMollenburg wrote:On your suggestions of using the language, I think I’m building a mental picture of how my hour of writing will look. Iguanamon suggested summarising episodes that I watch, and with your idea I could even refer back to the word lists in my magazines (intensive reading) and my flashcards as well and attempt to use the words in my writings. Thanks for the excellent idea StringerBell! I aim to add my writing hour within a month of having started this new study routine.


This sounds like a really killer approach!

When I used to write a summary (journal-style) of my day in Italian, I was always struggling to figure out what to write. So I started started jotting down 5-7 new words or expressions at the top of my paper that I'd harvested from my intentive reading and then tried to incorporate as many as possible into my writing. Somehow, those words at the top of the page gave me direction and ideas about what to write, and using them in my writing really anchored them in my mind. I put free-writing on hold temporarily, but I plan to resume it in awhile. I'm really looking forward to seeing how your writing routine takes shape.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 16, 2019 5:28 am

StringerBell wrote:
PeterMollenburg wrote:On your suggestions of using the language, I think I’m building a mental picture of how my hour of writing will look. Iguanamon suggested summarising episodes that I watch, and with your idea I could even refer back to the word lists in my magazines (intensive reading) and my flashcards as well and attempt to use the words in my writings. Thanks for the excellent idea StringerBell! I aim to add my writing hour within a month of having started this new study routine.


This sounds like a really killer approach!

When I used to write a summary (journal-style) of my day in Italian, I was always struggling to figure out what to write. So I started started jotting down 5-7 new words or expressions at the top of my paper that I'd harvested from my intentive reading and then tried to incorporate as many as possible into my writing. Somehow, those words at the top of the page gave me direction and ideas about what to write, and using them in my writing really anchored them in my mind. I put free-writing on hold temporarily, but I plan to resume it in awhile. I'm really looking forward to seeing how your writing routine takes shape.


Thanks StringerBell,

I appreciate your input and feedback. I’ve got of a solid framework of ideas now (some mine some from others - yourself, iguanamon) for my writing hour and have written them into my schedule, so I’ll get started on it soonish, maybe after an italki session with my favourite tutor perhaps in a week or two to work out my needs/weaknesses, and so that I can bounce the ideas off her. After all, passing C1/C2 is the objective and I don’t want to spend time on something (other writing styles) that’s not going to achieve much with regards to handling (the written portion of) the exam.


WRITING
15 min of SRS, then

45 min of:
Writing ideas:
• Focus on what helps me prepare for the
exam
• Write a summary of each episode of the
current series I’m watching
• Post my writing in my blog
• Try to use words taken from
My SRS deck
My intensive reading resources
Unknown words expressions from
Buffy (from transcrpits)
• Consider joining the writing challenge
• Consider joining the output challenge
• Ask my italki tutor(s) to check over my
writing
• Consider signing up for an online writing
course
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 16, 2019 7:17 am

Here’s my latest version with full details. Sorry it’s in French and I’ve not the time to translate now but if you want me to translate some or all of the below, post a message and i’ll do it when I can.

The main differences with this newly edited version is it’s gone from a four hour rotation to six. The new hours being the writing (mentioned in my previous post), and the doubling of course hours whereby an hour is specifically for Dalf courses and the other hour for predominantly general advanced French courses. I’m unsure this is the wisest move, but rifling through my containers full of French content this afternoon, I decided theres no way that one hour for both Dalf courses and other advanced courses is enough over six months to make much of an indentation in either. Thus an hour each made more sense. Speaking with tutors over italki is also to be an ovcasional objective not listed below.

-----------
Par roulement :
-----------
15 min de SRS, puis
45 min de :
La lecture intensive / vocabulaire
• Bien-dire
• Think French
• Science et Vie
• Le Monde
----------------------------------
Par roulement :

15 min de SRS, puis
45 min de :
Regarder / Écouter intensivement
• Buffy :
En écoutant et en arrêtant
l’audio le moins possible pour
consulter les transcriptions si je
ne comprends pas le dialogue :
S1, E1 : 37:10
Transcription : ‘arrive on
trombe’

Une heure de :
Regarder / Écouter énormément
• Un film/ un feuilleton télévisé :
natif, doublé et/ou avec sous-
titres en français
• Le Tour de France
4ème étape (1/2) : 10min
----------------------------------
15 min de SRS, puis

45 min de :
Un cours/ manuel avancé
• Prac. Makes Perf. : Subjunctive
• CLE : Voc Prog du FR (déb) p102
• Hugo French Advanced
• CLE : Gram Prog du FR (inter)
• Ultimate French Verb Rev. & Prac.
• Colloquial French 2
• Ultimate French Rev. & Practice
• CLE : Gram Prog du FR (avancé)
• CLE : Voc Prog du FR (inter)
• CLE : Voc Prog du FR (avancé)
• Prac. Makes Perf. : Adv FR Gram.
• CLE : Vocab Prog du FR (perfect.)
• Mot à Mot New Adv. FR Vocab
• Assimil Business French
• FSI French Basic (**Vol 2 only)
• Cours de langue et de civ. fr. 3
• CLE : Gram Prog du FR (perfect.)
• Cours de langue et de civ. fr. 4
----------------------------------
15 min de SRS, puis

45 min de :
Écriture
• Me concentre sur ce qui m’aide
sur l’examen
• Faire un compte rendu de chaque
épisode de la série que je
regarde régulièrement
• Poste mes écritures dans mon
blog(ue)
• Emploie des mots pris de :
mon SRS
Bien-dire / Think French
Les transcriptions de Buffy
• Inscrit-moi au challenge
d’écriture
• Inscrit-moi au challenge de
production
• Demande que mon professeur
particulier d’italki me fasse des
corrections
• Inscrit-moi à un cours d’écriture
----------------------------------
Une heure de :
Lire énormément
Par roulement :
Un livre bilingue ou en FR facile :
• First French Reader
• French Stories/ Contes Français
Un livre standard :
• le pape des escargots - Henri
Vincenot
• Globalia - Jean-Christophe Rufin
• Lecture des pédagogies
d’enfants
----------------------------------
15 min de SRS, puis

45 min de :
Préparation aux examens du Dalf
• Production écrite : niv. C1 / C2
• Réussir le Dalf : niv. C1 et C2
• Dalf C1 Tests complets corrigés
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Cavesa » Thu May 16, 2019 12:03 pm

I hope I won't seem too critical, if so I apologize and will shut up. Based on what I know about your learning path so far, I'd say you are safely beyond B2. Resources for learners up to B2 should therefore be a minority and mostly for review or catching up on some things missed the first time. When it comes to input, normal media should be the majority, whether you use them intensively or extensively.

If you are now striving for C1 or C2, it is important to leave your comfort zone in some areas. Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of things you are doing, I admire your systematic approach and find your attitude very inspiring! I'd just say that there is a huge inconsistency in the level of the various parts of your list.

I love your writing plan!

What caught my attention as it doesn't seem to fit:
-intensive reading and listening can be great. But there should be some extensive too, you seem to put it in the "Regarder / Écouter énormément" category. But why are you including subtitles there? As long as you don't get rid of them, you will not stop needing them. I've seen many people make this mistake with their English (and other languages, but English learners are the majority around here), truth be told. You will not improve, unless you put some time into watching something without the subtitles and giving your brain no other option than to adapt. That's the magic of extensive listening.
-courses: not every course with the word "Advanced" on it is actually advanced. Colloquial French 2 is likely to be a bit more A2+, based on this thread https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... php?t=4884 and I don't think the book format adds another value to your mix (which for example FSI might, despite being basic)
-Un livre bilingue ou en FR facile :First French Reader, French Stories/ Contes Français, that looks like a huge waste of time on your level, truth be told. Why not add more normal books instead?
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 16, 2019 12:28 pm

Cavesa wrote:I hope I won't seem too critical


Not at all. I need criticism at this point. I haven’t listened enough in the past. I keep reading and re-reading this thread (just when through a lot of it again) and I think i’m getting another idea altogether about what I should be doing. I talk about that later in the post.


Cavesa wrote:Based on what I know about your learning path so far, I'd say you are safely beyond B2. Resources for learners up to B2 should therefore be a minority and mostly for review or catching up on some things missed the first time.


Yep, cool. Makes sense. Btw, thank you so much, Cavesa for all the time you have spent over the years answering my posts and providing your experience, it really is truly invaluable. Yourself and iguanamon in particular, despite my silly ways at times have never ceased to want to help me, so thank you both.

Cavesa wrote:When it comes to input, normal media should be the majority, whether you use them intensively or extensively.


Okidoki, got it ;)


Cavesa wrote:If you are now striving for C1 or C2, it is important to leave your comfort zone in some areas. Don't get me wrong, I love a lot of things you are doing, I admire your systematic approach and find your attitude very inspiring! I'd just say that there is a huge inconsistency in the level of the various parts of your list.


Yep, okay, i’m hearing you....

Cavesa wrote:I love your writing plan!


Thank you. I do come up with some good ideas, but then do I actually follow through? Really the best thing I’ve been consistent with is doing courses, and if I want to reach C1/C2 that’s not gonna hold, I’ve got to change!

Cavesa wrote:What caught my attention as it doesn't seem to fit:
-intensive reading and listening can be great. But there should be some extensive too, you seem to put it in the "Regarder / Écouter énormément" category.


Actually, just to quickly interject here... I was aiming to watch/listen intensively with Buffy, then move on to exclusive extensive... emphasis on ‘was’. Please continue...

Cavesa wrote:But why are you including subtitles there?


Actually, that’s almost a typo. Parts of this plan have been copied and pasted from old plans (or evolved to be more precise) but I neglected to remove that part. I’m actually totally fine now without the subtitles, and prefer not to use them. I have watched a couple of series a little while back and the English subtitles which I couldn’t turn off were annoying me. More recently I’ve found series on Netflix without the subtitles and it’s now safe to say I’m much happier without them switched on.

Cavesa wrote:You will not improve, unless you put some time into watching something without the subtitles and giving your brain no other option than to adapt. That's the magic of extensive listening.


Yes, I agree, and again sorry for including that information that was no longer relevant. At least by you mentioning this again it reinforces to me not to back-step and turn them back on if I’m ever tempted!

Cavesa wrote:-courses: not every course with the word "Advanced" on it is actually advanced. Colloquial French 2 is likely to be a bit more A2+, based on this thread https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... php?t=4884 and I don't think the book format adds another value to your mix (which for example FSI might, despite being basic)


Okay, point taken (‘advanced’ not being advanced, necessarily). However, Colloquial French 2 at least focuses on some very different aspects of French I’ve not dealt with before that I thought could serve me well - writing a CV for example. I definitely did not think this course was A2. I’m B2 (and beyond as you say, and I tend to agree) yet Colloqual French 2 seems to be still a decent enough course for my level.

Cavesa wrote:-Un livre bilingue ou en FR facile :First French Reader, French Stories/ Contes Français, that looks like a huge waste of time on your level, truth be told. Why not add more normal books instead?


Well, I actually started French Parallel Texts 1 reading just before posting this and reading the first (most simple story) I thought, redacted, I must devote more time to reading and listening (native content), since even this story does not come that easy/natural to me.

So I think I’m reaching yet another conclusion after all of my ranting about plans and needs and plans and rotations and bla bla bla bla. Everything every person has said so far about native content has suddenly hit me like a ton of bricks. I MUST go native. I do not believe I can pass C1/C2 level unless I get my shit together and flip my whole approach on its head. I won’t have time to sit the exam in November, as I need tutoring, I need to write and I need to use the Dalf prep books, but I can go all native (reading and listening shit loads).

Luca, yourself, many others all say to reach C1/C2, one must challenge themselves, get out of their comfort zone. whatiftheblog said go native completely. Well, the writing, tutoring, Dalf books and learning mags can wait. I’m now changing my tact YET AGAIN (yes iguanamon, you said it, you were right!), i’m going to read and watch like no tomorrow EXTENSIVELY only and attempt to win the Super Challenge. No intensive studies anymore (up to the end of the year), no courses, no vocab, no mags, no transcripts, no SRS. The only training wheels I’ll use is a few Easy readers to knock them off my reading list. Otherwise SC, here I come.

Please shoot me! No really, how fucking insanely ridiculous am I?

Edit: sorry what I mean by ‘native content’ is listening and reading extensively, thus translations and dubbed series are included.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby rdearman » Thu May 16, 2019 12:48 pm

PeterMollenburg wrote: i’m going to read and watch like no tomorrow EXTENSIVELY only and attempt to win the Super Challenge.

You have been assimilated. Welcome to the collective. ;)
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby Aloyse » Thu May 16, 2019 5:38 pm

Random link to a French forum
https://forum.hardware.fr/hfr/Discussions/liste_sujet-1.htm
Despite the name of the website, the non-hardware related threads are also very active. In the "Discussions" subforum, about 300 threads were updated today.
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Thu May 16, 2019 10:22 pm

Okay, another plan. This time with a full hour of reading and watching every day, so no winning the SC, but considerable extensive activities on a daily basis, as it’s a considerable area that requires a good deal of focus. Courses, intensive reading and writing are reduced to half hour blocks respectively in between my extensive hours. SRS is gone. I don’t have time for it.

Par roulement :
-----------
Par roulement / rotating studies :

• Une demi-heure d’études intensives
• Une heure d’étudier énormément
• Une demi-heure d’études intensives
• Une heure d’étudier énormément
• Une demi-heure d’études intensives
----------------------------------
LES ÉTUDES INTENSIVES :

30 min de :
La lecture intensive / vocabulaire
• Bien-dire
• Think French
• Science et Vie
• Le Monde

30 min de :
Un cours/ manuel avancé
• Prac. Makes Perf. : Subjunctive
Préparation aux examens du Dalf
• Production écrite : niv. C1 / C2
• Réussir le Dalf : niv. C1 et C2
• Dalf C1 Tests complets corrigés

30 min de :
Écriture
• Me concentre sur ce qui m’aide
sur l’examen
• Faire un compte rendu de chaque
épisode de la série que je
regarde régulièrement
• Poste mes écritures dans mon
blog(ue)
• Emploie des mots pris de :
mon SRS
Bien-dire / Think French
Les transcriptions de Buffy
• Inscrit-moi au challenge
d’écriture
• Inscrit-moi au challenge de
production
• Demande que mon professeur
particulier d’italki me fasse des
corrections
• Inscrit-moi à un cours d’écriture
----------------------------------
ÉTUDIER ÉNORMÉMENT :

Une heure de :
Regarder / Écouter énormément
• Buffy (en me référant aux
transcriptions)
• Un film/ un feuilleton télévisé :
natif, doublé
• Le Tour de France
4ème étape (1/2) : 10min

Une heure de :
Lire énormément
Un livre bilingue ou en FR facile :
• First French Reader
• French Stories/ Contes Français
Un livre standard :
• le pape des escargots - Henri
Vincenot
• Globalia - Jean-Christophe Rufin
• Lecture des pédagogies
d’enfants


Don’t understand this? Basically I rotate between 30 minute blocks of intensive study and hour blocks of extensive activities. If I change my mind again, I will hand myself in to the local police. Once I detail my history here, I’m surely to get a 20 year sentence. Then I can study all my courses!
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Re: Time from B2 to C1/C2? (frustrated somewhat- seeking some feedback pls)

Postby PeterMollenburg » Fri May 17, 2019 12:53 am

And my very latest (I write to you from prison) :

----------------------------------
Par roulement :
-----------
15 min de :
Lecture intensive / vocabulaire
• Bien-dire

45 min de :
Soit : Un cours/ manuel avancé
• Prac. Makes Perf. : Subjunctive
Soit : Préparation aux examens du Dalf
• Production écrite : niv. C1 / C2
• Réussir le Dalf : niv. C1 et C2
• Dalf C1 Tests complets corrigés
----------------------------------
15 min de :
La lecture intensive / vocabulaire
• Bien-dire

45 min de :
Regarder / Écouter énormément
• Buffy (en me référant aux
transcriptions)
• Un film/ un feuilleton télévisé :
natif, doublé
• Le Tour de France
4ème étape (1/2) : 10min
----------------------------------
15 min de :
La lecture intensive / vocabulaire
• Bien-dire

45 min de :
Écriture
• Me concentre sur ce qui m’aide
sur l’examen
• Faire un compte rendu de chaque
épisode de la série que je
regarde régulièrement
• Poste mes écritures dans mon
blog(ue)
• Emploie des mots pris de :
mon SRS
Bien-dire / Think French
Les transcriptions de Buffy
• Inscrit-moi au challenge
d’écriture
• Inscrit-moi au challenge de
production
• Demande que mon professeur
particulier d’italki me fasse des
corrections
• Inscrit-moi à un cours d’écriture
----------------------------------
15 min de :
La lecture intensive / vocabulaire
• Bien-dire

45 min de :
Lire énormément
Un livre bilingue ou en FR facile :
• First French Reader
• French Stories/ Contes Français
Un livre standard :
• le pape des escargots - Henri
Vincenot
• Globalia - Jean-Christophe Rufin
• Lecture des pédagogies
d’enfants
----------------------------------


Now, to get on with it. Objective: Stick to this for 6 months, sit C1/C2
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