Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

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Bex
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Wed Jan 09, 2019 2:30 pm

Brun Ugle wrote:The point of the drills isn’t that they should be hard. They should become so easy that you can do them in your sleep. The point is to make the correct forms pop out of your mouth without you having to think about it, the same way they do in your native language.
I have just finished listening to all the lesson 3 audio for a second time, got everything correct and it's all fairly automatic. I am managing to say all the responses well within the time given and I also started to repeat the sentences in the gap after the correct response is given as well.

I will repeat lesson 3 tomorrow morning for review and then move on to lesson 4.

If (and it's a big if) I can continue to complete lessons until I am this comfortable with them, then (and only then) will I move onto the next lesson. I will not give myself any limits on how long I spend on each lesson and I will make sure "I can do them in my sleep" before I move on.

I have studied lesson 3 before (sometime in the last 2 years) but I found it too difficult at the time, I think this also added to my apprehension to start FSI again this time... it's nice to see that I have progressed enough that it now seems easy.... although I'm sure that won't last ;)
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Bex
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Thu Jan 10, 2019 10:37 am

Image
Started a new book today. I've read the first chapter. It's for ages 8+ but I'm still finding it a struggle ... it's a lot harder than the learner material I'm used to reading :oops: :lol:

But I know it's time to take off those training wheels now.
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby AndyMeg » Thu Jan 10, 2019 3:28 pm

Bex wrote:Image
Started a new book today. I've read the first chapter. It's for ages 8+ but I'm still finding it a struggle ... it's a lot harder than the learner material I'm used to reading :oops: :lol:

But I know it's time to take off those training wheels now.


It's great that you decided to take off those training wheels!!!

Here a few tips in case they may be of help:

From my experiences so far, the most important factor in order to stick with materials for natives in the long term is to find material that is genuinely compelling to you and take it slowly at the beginning. The reason why is this:

- When you are working with material that is not compelling/engaging enough to you you need to use willpower in order to stick with it. Willpower takes a lot of energy and leaves us with less energy to learn from the material. But when the material you are using is compelling/engaging enough to you, then you don't need to use your willpower because you will feel naturally attracted to go back to the material and continue working on deciphering it. With willpower out of the equation you save a lot of energy that can, instead, be used in the learning process.

- It is important to go easy on us at the beginning because if we don't then we run the risk of early burnout. Don't make goals like "today I'll read 5 pages" (if the material is genuinely compelling/engaging enough to you, you won't need those kind of goals). It is ok if that day you only read a line or a paragraph. If the material is genuinely compelling/engaging enough to you, then you will feel the impulse to go back to it the next day, and the next day, and the day after that (no willpower needed and, thus, lots of energy saved). And as you keep going back to it you'll start to notice patterns, words, expressions that repeat a lot. And, because the material is genuinely compelling/engaging to you, then it'll be easier to remember what all those words and expressions mean because they we'll be emotionally connected to you and surrounded by lots of context clues. So, even if you start by only being able to decipher one line before getting exhausted, as time goes by things will become easier and easier to understand, and eventually you'll find yourself reading many pages without much trouble.

And you can use whatever tool you need in order to make the material more comprehensible. The key factor is not what tool you use but how you use it:

First try to decipher a line or a word by yourself. Then, use the additional tools. Here some examples:

- When reading a korean webtoon that is way above my current level but which is really compelling to me, I used to do this (and I plan to do this again when I go back to learn korean):

1. See the main image and the surrounding images.
2. Read a line in korean and try to guess its meaning without the use of additional tools.
3. After trying to guess the meaning, then put that line on "Google Translator" and compare the english translation to my initial guess and try to divide the sentence into parts and match those parts with the korean line.
4. If the translation from Google didn't make the korean line comprehensible enough (this usually happens with some slang, for example), then look for key words or parts on the internet and read about it (sites like italki or HiNative tend to be really useful for solving these doubts)
5. Move on to the next line and repeat the process.

NOTE: Especially when the material is too difficult or way above your level, the most important thing is to just get the gist of it and move on. Later, when your are already at a level where you can easily get the gist of things, then you can move on to a more precise understanding.

- I'm working in different ways with different chinese dramas. Here is one way:

Watch the drama with dual chinese-english subs and pause at each line.

1. Read the chinese sub and try to guess its meaning without using additional tools and without reading the english line.
2. Read the english line and compare it to my initial guess.
3. Compare the chinese line and the english line and try to match meaning between the two (for example: "Oh!, this word here seems to mean -shopkeeper-". Or "In chinese they seem to say ______ using this kind of wording: _____". Or "This character name is spelled like this _____", or "Oh! this word was used in the previous line too, and the only word that is repeated in the english subs from this line and the previous line is -heir- so this chinese word probably means -heir-".
4. After finishing step 3 there will probably be parts that are still obscure to me. It doesn't matter for now. I just move on to the next line and repeat the process.

Note: Sometimes the lines don't match perfectly (because of a different word order in each language, for example), so I have to read the next english line in order to compare it with my guess from the previous chinese line.

Besides the specific activities with native or target-language-translated material, I do other complementary activities like reading about grammar and getting familiar with the most frequent vocabulary. I usually don't try force myself to memorize anything, I just try to understand, guess the meaning of the example sentences, compare it to the english translation, and move on. You could do the same with courses, for example. With enough exposition to native material that you try to understand and that is compelling to you, you will eventually start to connect the dots between the courses you work with and the language as it is used by natives. ;)

EDITED: To add an "f" in "off" XD!
Last edited by AndyMeg on Thu Jan 10, 2019 8:03 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Bex
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Thu Jan 10, 2019 6:46 pm

AndyMeg wrote:It's great that you decided to take of those training wheels!!!

Here a few tips in case they may be of help


Thanks and thanks for the tips. The method I'm using to read this book it is not totally different from your suggestions. I noticed today that I can now guess and use the surrounding sentences to guess a meaning, as you're suggesting.

With this book I started to read it really intensively, I wrote a lot of vocab & grammar notes in the margins, I did this for 3 pages and then my head hurt. So I just tried to read the rest of the chapter without looking anything up, the story is really sweet and not too long, I hope it will keep my interest. If not I have a pile of other books to try :D

Some of the new vocabulary & grammar I'd previously looked up was repeated and some I just had to guess but apart from one or two blurry sentences, somehow I managed to read to the end of the chapter.

My previous work with learner material has definitely helped, I'm a lot more relaxed about trying to read native material now.

I shall continue flipping between very intensive and extensive reading, stopping the intensive as it becomes to much and then continuing extensively. I'm hoping this system will carry me through without too much frustration.
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Fri Jan 11, 2019 4:00 pm

Progress this week;
42 pages read
No listening - except for FSI.
Watching - 1 episode of Avatar - 23 minutes
FSI Basic Spanish -
    Lesson 3 x 3
    Lesson 4 x 2
    Lesson 5 x 1
At 45 minutes each, that's 4 hours and 30 minutes of FSI this week.

My thoughts on this week's progress...

Reading
Still progressing nicely. I am reading The Linguist on LingQ, the Llya Frank stories (pdf) and my kids book Diablillo. I am finding it nice to have a few different things to switch between.

I am starting to be able to guess meanings from context which is a nice change from all the intensive reading I've been doing.

Very close to catching up to where I should be for the Super Challenge now.

FSI/Listening
Shame I can't log my time listening to FSI for the Super Challenge, because then I wouldn't be so far behind.

I am strangely drawn to the FSI lessons, they are so thorough, I really wish they drilled vosotros though :cry:

So far the lessons have been fairly straightforward, my biggest hurdle is not being able to remember what I'm supposed to be saying during some of the longer sentences in the dialogues :roll:

ETA: My watching time.
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Bex
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:21 pm

Rubbish week for Spanish...life just got in the way this week. However I have had time to think through some things.

Reading: I just haven't had much time to sit down this week - bad week for reading.

FSI: I reached lesson 6 this week and I am enjoying it thus far... although it's early days. I can see now why everyone raves about and also why some people can't stand it :lol:

Anki: I have been avoiding it again, this was something I have been thinking about this week and I have decided that Anki is not a good tool to learn vocabulary for the first time. It is great for solidifying knowledge but I have been unable to find a way to use it for learning in the first place and then be able to apply it in the real world.

Yesterday I was watching TV and there were 3 or 4 words I heard that I knew had been covered in my Anki deck but I couldn't remember what they meant.

Reading seems to be a better way to learn for me and then when I add the full sentences to my Anki deck I know their context, this way I do not need to "learn" anything using Anki.

Anyway I think I have rambled enough, I am coming to the conclusion that Anki and pre-made decks are not very useful for me.

Maybe Memrise would be better, since I think it has a 'learning' phase?
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Brun Ugle » Sat Jan 19, 2019 12:34 pm

I find I have to learn words several times in several contexts to really learn them. Anki or Memrise can be one of those contexts, and can help keep the word fresh until I encounter it again in some other context. I usually make my own Memrise decks for Spanish with words I’ve come across in books or TV shows. I like Memrise for individual words because it shows me them in several different ways. I download audio from Forvo to add to my decks because I find I learn better if I both see and hear the word, and I also use typing tests. Even so, it takes a while before I can actively remember a word when I need it. That’s why I try to do writing and speaking practice.
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby kennyaa » Sat Jan 19, 2019 1:16 pm

Where are you getting your anki setences from?

Two things I've found useful are;

1. Mining the sentences from places where I can easily recall the context. One example I have of this are using sentences my tutors on italki write in correct form for me (I can usually contextualise quite easily, as I'm talking with my tutor about something personal, or can remember what we were talking about at the time that I said that sentence). Another example is that, at the moment I'm trying to beef up my vocabulary in order to listen to Spanish football podcasts and watch La Liga in Spanish, so I've been cutting whole sentences from Football websites and the Deportes section on El País. Again, I can usually place the sentence in what tournament, player, team or match the article was about. I'm gonna start doing this with other topics I know of and read about everyday in English (Brexit, Medicine etc.)

I find I cement words noticeably faster from these sentences than I do from sentences that I pick from grammar books.

2. Adding the words more than once = more context. When I'm reading through an article on El País even if I understand the grammar of the sentence and all the words in it, I often cut and copy it into my deck anyway. Also, this doesn't just have the benefit of giving me more practice and more context with these words and sentence structures, but I think it's also important to throw in sentences you're not struggling with because having some easy sentences in makes anki more enjoyable. If I have to sit down to do a deck with 50 sentences each with 1 new word in it, it just scares me off and I procrastinate, then when I sit down to actually do it I hate it the whole time I'm doing it. Doing it this way can be quite pleasurable, sometimes I feel like more or less revising a news article sentence by sentence.
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Bex
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:46 pm

kennyaa wrote:Where are you getting your anki setences from?

I have two decks one with the top 3000 Spanish words and one with around 2500 sentences I have taken from podcasts I have listened to.

The deck with the podcast sentences I have little problem with and I usually find understanding the sentences pretty easy most of the time. I will keep this deck, I like it.

The shared deck however, the one I downloaded with the top 3000 words is the one I'm struggling with doing every day. I seem to be remembering the card and not really the word, outside of Anki I'm not really recalling the words at all :roll:

The solutions I could see were:
A) Add audio, sentences and context to the top 3000 words deck...that would at least give the words some context.
B) Delete it and assume that those words will appear often enough in my reading/listening anyway.

I'm not sure it's worth my time doing A?
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Sat Jan 19, 2019 2:49 pm

Brun Ugle wrote:I find I have to learn words several times in several contexts to really learn them. Anki or Memrise can be one of those contexts, and can help keep the word fresh until I encounter it again in some other context.

Maybe there's an option C then...create my own Memrise deck using the top 3000 words instead?
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