Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby rdearman » Sat Feb 09, 2019 1:02 pm

Bex wrote:
Morgana wrote:You can do whatever you want with them.
But some methods must be more effective than others?

Morgana wrote:Some say 10,000 pages is a "magic" number.
It seems doubtful to me that all you need to do is read 10,000 pages and you'll magically know Spanish. Maybe that is all there is to it? Maybe you need to do other stuff? And what if 10,000 pages isn't enough, that's a harsh lesson after all that reading/time!

No you won't magically "know Spanish" you'll know how to read in Spanish. Reading will increase your vocabulary, but unless you're reading out-loud it will not help your speaking nor will hit help your listening comprehension. Reading a lot helps you read. Speaking a lot helps you speak. Listening a lot helps you listen. (You see the pattern here I'm sure.)

Eventually you'll have to use native materials, because eventually you'll be past the point where they make courses for your level. Eventually you'll need to communicate with someone, so you might as well start practising output.

Bex wrote:
Morgana wrote:There are people on this forum who go a mostly native materials/comprehensible input route, but like you I always wonder about the "hows" because I'm sure I could be doing things more efficiently but I don't know how to apply myself so I do it lazily. It works too, eventually.
I wish I knew how to apply myself and I had a tried/tested method :roll:

I suppose that is my issue really, it's so slow and quite painful using native materials, especially at my level. It shows me constantly how much I don't know and that is difficult to deal with mentally on a daily basis. The graded readers, or texts for learners are soooo boring AND I have no idea if all this reading will get me to where I want to be anyway :|

Maybe I'm just wavering in trusting the process. I suspect if you've already learnt a language before and you KNOW your method will work eventually it makes the whole process a lot easier.

You can journey between London and Paris, by bus, plane, train, car, walking, jogging, running, even swimming. Some are quicker than others but all will eventually get you to the objective if you continue. You can also switch between methods, and eventually get there, but the one thing you cannot do is stop. If you stop then you'll never arrive at the destination.

So I wouldn't worry about the method of transportation so much as worrying about progress. Like a good General you need to attack the enemy on all fronts. Reading, Listening, Writing, and Speaking. Work all the various parts and don't focus on only one. Or ...

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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby StringerBell » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:51 pm

Bex wrote:My problem is not so much finding material to read but the actual reading itself, I don't really enjoy reading (in any language)....I prefer watching/listening.


I'm having an issue finding material I'm interested in Italian, so I totally get this. I have two suggestions (which may or may not be useful) based on what I've done so far. Maybe you've tried these already, in which case...I got nothing! :lol:

1) Can you find any websites or magazines that have interesting articles on topics you're interested in? I found that reading articles was much better than reading books for several reasons - they're shorter so there's a constant sense of completion, they typically use language that's more conversational and useful, there's less commitment so if one is boring it's easy to move on to a different one.

2) Can you find any youtube channels on topics you're interested in? Think about the kinds of things you'd want to watch in English and then search for those kinds of channels in Spanish. Then, use the CC auto-generated subs (if available). I've found them to be surprisingly accurate as long as the video sticks to one language. Then, you will be watching and listening to videos but you can also read along with the subs, so it's like a stealth R+L with visuals.
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby eido » Sat Feb 09, 2019 3:40 pm

I say I'm B1, not certified. So take this with a grain of salt.

I got better at Spanish when I tried to write in it. I'm in the intermediate grind now, so I'm not as excited to go out there and learn, but back when I was a newbie in Spanish 1 in freshman year, I was writing basic sentences every week in my Lang-8 journal. I was using SpanishDict to find new ways of saying things that I hadn't yet learned. And I used them over and over again until they stuck. There are still a lot of important "glue words" I don't know, but because I looked what I do know up back then, my Spanish ability skyrocketed. All the different ways to say "so", "therefore", "because", "that's why"... They're necessary to my personal lexicon. So I remember them and they stay with me. Don't be afraid to write. Just make your best educated guesses when you do it so you're using your brain to figure out the language and have knowledge of its inner-workings. Having that framework will help you make more guesses, which will help you go faster and be more sure of yourself.
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Inst » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:33 pm

About not "enjoying" reading, are you familiar with speed reading strategies? A lot of people don't enjoy reading for the simple reason that it takes too long, and it's also a problem in a foreign language. When you read English, for instance, you can achieve the typical average 300 words / minute of a reader, as well as 600 words / minute expected for a college graduate power-reading. When you read a foreign language, on the other hand, part of the skill (and this is a problem for Chinese learners with upper level exams) is being able to read through the material quickly.

Speed reading strategies, such as forcing you to read without subvocalization, or reading at progressively faster speeds, is necessary as you improve your reading proficiency in a target language. Reading in a foreign language is not merely a question of understanding the words and meaning, but also being able to do so quickly.

(Of course, speed reading is antithetical to vocabulary acquisition, so reading with subvocalization, or even reading out loud, is good when you're more vocabulary-focused).

===

Another question: when you say basic grammar, what do you mean by that? Is it, say, the Duolingo level of conjugation? Or is it at a more basic level? Somehow I suspect it's a problem with grasp of basics; grammar is unlike vocabulary in that grammar shouldn't merely be memorized, but also practiced frequently to be properly grasped.

Also, what exactly is your vocabulary size in the target language? For Chinese, for instance, the HSK 5 theoretically means that you can read newspapers and so on. In practice, it means that you can read newspapers with the assistance of a dictionary, real or electronic, and is to be somewhat expected given that you'd only know 2,500 words. I'm not sure what the equivalent numbers are for Spanish, but you may end up benefiting from further expanding your lexicon, at the same time you focus on the practical (reading, listening, speaking, and writing) skills.
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby rdearman » Sat Feb 09, 2019 5:58 pm

Here is a link to the "Random Page" function in WIkipedia for Italian. I suggest you make this your new homepage on your browser, and just read an article every time you open your web-browser. If you just tell yourself you'll not move on another web-page until you've read this one, you'll end up reading a lot! And because it is random, and most articles are short, it shouldn't really be to much of a problem.

Code: Select all

https://it.wikipedia.org/wiki/Speciale:PaginaCasuale


EDIT: I have no idea why I gave you the link in Italian. Here is the Random Page link for Spanish.

Code: Select all

https://es.wikipedia.org/wiki/Especial:Aleatoria
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:43 am

Morgana wrote:
Bex wrote:
Morgana wrote:Some say 10,000 pages is a "magic" number.
It seems doubtful to me that all you need to do is read 10,000 pages and you'll magically know Spanish. Maybe that is all there is to it? Maybe you need to do other stuff? And what if 10,000 pages isn't enough, that's a harsh lesson after all that reading/time!

To be clear I was responding to what one might do with native materials, not what one might do to magically know Spanish.
Sorry if I offended in any way. My comments were really directed towards the "some people" who say that 10,000 pages is needed. I was really just thinking aloud sorry.
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Sun Feb 10, 2019 8:55 am

DaveAgain wrote:As long as you're doing something in spanish every day, I don't think it matters too much what it is, so I'd go with the ones that don't bore you!
rdearman wrote:You can also switch between methods, and eventually get there, but the one thing you cannot do is stop. If you stop then you'll never arrive at the destination.
Morgana wrote:Sure. My point was that doing anything will get you somewhere, though, in the absence of knowing the "right" way.
Such amazing group consensus! :D
I agree with you all totally, I know if I don't stop I will get there eventually. My frustration is caused by constantly feeling like I am crawling towards my goals and never flying, I need to resolve this mental issue with myself. I'm really just venting my frustrations [again] at the size of the mountain I see before me... sorry but it's hard work and I'm getting increasingly frustrated at being bad at it :oops:
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby rdearman » Sun Feb 10, 2019 10:32 am

Join the club. Welcome to intermediate hell.
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby Bex » Sun Feb 10, 2019 12:19 pm

rdearman wrote:Join the club. Welcome to intermediate hell.
You're not here as well are you? I don't like it this club, I never asked to join it.... where's the exit? Get me out of here!!!!

I guess this the point where most people give up? Do you have a plan?
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Re: Bex Spanish log 2019: a definitive guide on the slowest way to learn Spanish ever!

Postby rdearman » Sun Feb 10, 2019 1:33 pm

Bex wrote:
rdearman wrote:Join the club. Welcome to intermediate hell.
You're not here as well are you? I don't like it this club, I never asked to join it.... where's the exit? Get me out of here!!!!

I guess this the point where most people give up? Do you have a plan?

This is exactly the point where most people give up. I did a talk about this at the polyglot gathering. I wrote a blog post about it as well. Many people get demoralised when they realise how far they have to go. I think if you re-evaluate your language learning you might be ok. You need to not think about "learning Spanish" because you never will. The same as you'll never completely learn English. There are a ton of words I don't know in English. There are grammar rules I don't know (or care) about. You need to stop thinking that you're going to learn Spanish then move on. To be successful you're going to have to move in and live with Spanish. It needs to become part of your life and something that you identify with. You have to wear Spanish like a pair of old comfortable socks. Which means you need to wear them all the time, you need to break it in and get comfortable with it. You aren't going to "break through Spanish", you're going to have to let it envelop you and own a large chunk of your brain. It has to learn to coexist with English in your brain.

Lots of metaphors there, but basically if you just realise that learning Spanish doesn't have an end-point and it is going to be there for the rest of your life, then you'll be a lot less anxious. You gave the analogy of going up a mountain. But people live all over mountains, some at the base, some part way up, some at the peak, some on the other side. Your now an inhabitant of Spanish Mountain, and you've got a house near the bottom, but you're working hard to afford the house further up the slopes. One day you'll get up to C2 ledge, but your never going to get to the peak, only people born on Spanish mountain get there. So my advice is to keep patching up the house you live in, and keep working on getting that house further up the slope. Meanwhile, look around once in awhile from the top of English mountain at all the people struggling up the slopes and just be glad you aren't them. :)
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