Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby dampingwire » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:09 am

StringerBell wrote:Maybe there was a pinball game called "Flipper" at some point? I've never heard it called this in English.


I don't think I've heard it called that in English either, but pinball machines (at least in the UK) have flippers ("He's got crazy flipper fingers, never seen him fall"), so I guess that's where the name comes from. None of the languages that I know use flipper (or some variant thereof) for pinball actually use flipper to mean the limb of an aquatic animal. (Except, now that I go and check, Japanese does use フリッパー(FURIPPAA) for both (although ピンボール (PINBOORU) seems to be more common, but it only means the machine, not the limb).
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby reineke » Tue Feb 19, 2019 1:35 am

Spanish, French, German, Croatian: flipper (fliper). Those plastic bats that hit the ball when you push the buttons right are called flippers.
Last edited by reineke on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:57 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Tue Feb 19, 2019 8:41 am

StringerBell wrote:I did another chapter in the Polish Tutor workbook and have changed my mind; I started out liking it a lot, but now I think it sucks. The chapter introducing verb aspects had a total of three examples, which were not even remotely enough to see any kind of pattern when the perfective form is used versus the imperfective form. This topic was one of the main reasons I wanted to use a book to begin with, so I'm really disappointed. Seriously, 3 examples? I guess I'm going to have to try to generate my own examples using RC.

There is a free video series for Hebrew verbs, with two examples for each. If you buy a book, you will have 60 examples for each. You bought a book for Polish and had only three examples? Nice ;) If you write those examples here or in Polish group thread I will try to add more corresponding ones so maybe the patterns will become visible.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Tue Feb 19, 2019 2:24 pm

cjareck wrote:You bought a book for Polish and had only three examples?


Yes, I feel ripped off! Who knows, maybe perfective and imperfective verbs return in some later chapter, but already at the end of this chapter I'm expected to choose the correct form but I have no idea how! The treat imperfective/perfective verb aspects as a minor thing to be mentioned in passing, almost like it's trivial. In addition to only giving 3 very unhelpful examples, I find the explanation to be lacking.

This is word for word exactly how Chapter 6 explains perfective and imperfective verbs:

Polish relies heavily on using the correct form of the verb to indicate if the action is completed, done, and dusted, or if it is not completed or ongoing. English uses simple vs. continuous aspects of the tense, and it is the use of the gerund (-ing form) that makes life easier in distinguishing between the two aspects.

I eat > I'm eating
I ate > I was eating

In Polish you will face a choice of whether to use the imperfective or perfective form.

jeść (imp)> zjeść (perf) (to eat)

dzwonić (imp) > zadzwonić (perf) (to telephone / to call)

Example 1: Jadłem obiad kiedy zadzwonił telefon. (I was eating dinner when the phone rang.)

czytać (imp) > przeczytać (perf) (to read)

Example #2: Cały wieczor czytałam książkę. (I was reading a book the whole evening.)
*I'm assuming that czytać was used because I didn't finished the book, but if I had finished the book, then it should be przeczytać, but I'm not sure if that's right. Maybe it's czytać because from the sentence you can't tell if the book was finished?

pisać > napisać (to write)

Example #3: Kto napisał "Quo Vadis"? (Who wrote "Quo Vadis"?)

Remember: perfective verbs do not have a present tense form. It is also worth noting that some verbs have only one form (either perfective or imperfective).

*Now you are expected to distinguish between imperfective/perfective carbs and choose the right one in the following exercise!

From this chapter it seems that the imperfective form is equivalent to the English "I was doing..." and you use it to describe an action in the past that wasn't completed or was interrupted. The perfective form is only for an action that was completed 100%. However, I'm not confident about this conclusion because I think it's a little more complicated than this, plus they don't even mention future tense here. But maybe it really is this simple???

EDIT: fixed my original mistake

********************

If you could possibly give me a list of sentences that use either perfective or imperfective forms (for example one some with pić, some with napić or some with iść, some with pójść), that would be very useful! Then maybe I can try to look for patterns and get a feel for when they are used.
Last edited by StringerBell on Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:51 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Chung » Tue Feb 19, 2019 4:32 pm

StringerBell wrote:From this chapter it seems that the perfective form is equivalent to the English "I was doing..." and you use it to describe an action in the past that wasn't completed or was interrupted. The imperfective form is only for an action that was completed 100%. However, I'm not confident about this conclusion because I think it's a little more complicated than this, plus they don't even mention future tense here. But maybe it really is this simple???


It's the other way around: IMperfective forms are used to describe incomplete or interrupted actions (~ they are not "perfect" / completed actions). Perfective forms are used to describe completed actions (~ they are "perfect" / completed actions)

There's a subset of imperfective verbs that denote frequent or habitual activity e.g. pisać (imperfective, non-frequentative), pisywać (imperfective, frequentative), napisać (perfective, emphasis on completion so no attention paid to frequency). These also turn up in some other actions where it can be useful to make a distinction within the verb stem based on frequency or habit on top of degree of completion (e.g. mieć ~ miewać, jeść ~ jadać, iść ~ chodzić)

As for getting a handle on aspect, I can see two ways that could help you:

1) Draw up a list of Polish verbs that you encounter (which you seem to be doing this already) as you go along. As an alternative, start building the list by using verbs in this list - it already gives the aspectual variant(s) along with full conjugation patterns. Afterwards, look up each verb in your list in PONS Polish-English dictionary. The beauty of this dictionary is not only do you get a translation of the entry to English, and even usage examples, but for almost every verb, you'll be shown the entry's aspect, and also its aspectual counterpart. Take note of this information and refer to the list for a few minutes every day or so over a few months (if you'd like, make up your own sentences with verbs in the list for extra practice, and have them corrected by natives). I used this technique for Slovak to get a better handle on aspect (more like remembering the actual variants in Slovak because they're sometimes different from their Polish counterparts, and I was mixing up the pairs between the languages). For Polish I did write a lot of stuff as assigned by my textbooks with Polish friends then proofreading my answers, and did some exercises with specific drillbooks (q.v.).

I know that whenever Radioclare used Lang8 and her log to practice writing in BCMS/SC, she got corrections and feedback from natives about choice of aspectual variant (among the usual corrections involving spelling and declension). I remember times when someone like Daniel N would correct her log entries so offering a native's reasoning why a given aspectual variant was the correct one. Try something similar with Polish, if that floats your boat.

Here's a screenshot with czytać

Image

As you see here, czytać can mean "to read" or "to foretell". In imperfective, it's not obvious since the verb used looks the same but in perfective, you'd use przeczytać to indicate that you finished reading or will finish reading a book (or similar) to completion, whereas you'd use odczytać to indicate that you made a prediction or will make a prediction of the future. With these perfective verbs, you're signalling that you weren't or will not be interrupted from doing your thing be it reading or predicting the future.

2) Drill, baby, drill. When I was in Poland, I bought Iść czy jechać? and Czas na czasownik on the recommendation of my Polish prof to drill conjugations and get better at choosing aspectual counterparts. Iść czy jechać? focuses on verbs of motion while Czas na czasownik is a generalized drill book that's like Practice Makes Perfect Italian Verbs and similar but a lot thicker. You might also score some free exercises online by searching for "ćwiczenia czasowniki dokonane i niedokonane" or "Polish verb exercises", although the books are a sure-fire source of such things in one package.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Tue Feb 19, 2019 5:06 pm

Chung wrote:
StringerBell wrote:From this chapter it seems that the perfective form is equivalent to the English "I was doing..." and you use it to describe an action in the past that wasn't completed or was interrupted. The imperfective form is only for an action that was completed 100%. However, I'm not confident about this conclusion because I think it's a little more complicated than this, plus they don't even mention future tense here. But maybe it really is this simple???


It's the other way around: IMperfective forms are used to describe incomplete or interrupted actions (~ they are not "perfect" / completed actions). Perfective forms are used to describe completed actions (~ they are "perfect" / completed actions)

Thanks for the explanations Chung! I was a little confused this time. To avoid that, I suggest using Polish grammatical terms. In Polish, there are "niedokonany" and "dokonany" verbs. The first one is incomplete and the second is completed. I read this on my smartphone and I had some time before I could sit in front of a computer and write a reply. I figured out something interesting, and hopefully useful. There are some exceptions, but is seems to be a rule.
If you take "niedokonany" verb in a present tense and add a right prefix to it, you receive "dokonany" verb in the future tense:
czytam + prze => przeczytam
czytasz + prze => przeczytasz

uczę + na -> nauczę

myję + u -> umyję
zbieram + u -> uzbieram

This leads to your question about the future tense of the "dokonany" verbs. It is easy - if you want to express that you plan to finish reading the book, not the fact that you will just read it, you will use "dokonany"
"Będę czytał jutro książkę" -> I will read a book tomorrow (I may finish it, but I may not. Reading is more important than completing)
"Jutro przeczytam książkę" -> I will finish a book tomorrow

The examples
("niedokonany) ("dokonany")
"z":
myć -> zmyć (to wash a spot from clothing or table)
Myłem podłogę (floor may be clean but may not)
Zmyłem plamy z podłogi

"u"
myć -> umyć
Myłem ręce, ale nie wiem czy są czyste (I wash my hands but I don't know if they are clean)
Umyłem ręce (I washed my hands completely)
zbierać -> uzbierać
Zbierałem pieniądze na wyjazd (I was gathering money for a trip - I may have enough, but may not)
Uzbierałem pieniądze na wyjazd (I have gathered money for a trip - I have enough to pay for the trip)

"prze"
pisać -> przepisać
Cały dzień pisałem zadanie domowe (I was writing a homework a whole day)
Przepisałem zadanie domowe od kolegi (I copied homework from a colleague
myć -> przemyć
"Przemyć" is mostly used as "to perform a disinfection of a wound"
Przemyłem dziecku ranę na nodze.
czytać -> przeczytać
[This was already explained I think]

"na"
pisać -> napisać
Pisałem wczoraj opowiadanie (I was writing a story yesterday)
Napisałem wczoraj opowiadanie (I wrote a story yesterday - The story is completed)
rysować -> narysować
Rysowałem wczoraj statek (I was drawing a ship yesterday)
Narysowałem wczoraj statek (I drawed a ship yesterday)
malować -> namalować
Malowałem wczoraj obraz (I was painting a picture yesterday)
Namalowałem wczoraj obraz (I painted (and finished) a picture yesterday
[note that in the following examples besides adding a prefix, you have to make the verb reflexive]
jeść -> najeść się
Wczoraj jadłem obiad (I was eating a lunch/dinner yesterday)
Wczoraj najadłem się obiadem (I ate a lunch/dinner and was not hungry anymore)
pić -> napić się
Wczoraj piłem dużo wody (I was drinking a lot of water yesterday - but I could still be thirsty)
Wczoraj napiłem (dużo) się wody (I drank water yesterday and was not thirsty. "dużo" should rather be skipped in this case)

I wrote too much in Polish to use Grammarly, so sorry for the mistakes in English. I hope that, nevertheless, it will be clear enough for you. This is rather general explanation. If you wish some details, let me know.

"Iść" is not an easy verb since it changes a form
iść -> pójść
Wczoraj szedłem do szkoły (male)
Wczoraj szłam do szkoły (female) -> Yesterday I was going to school - but I might not even have an intention to reach it
Wczoraj poszedłem do szkoły - I went to school yesterday
Wczoraj poszłam do szkoły
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby dampingwire » Tue Feb 19, 2019 9:09 pm

reineke wrote:Spanish, French, German, Croatian: flipper (flipper). Those plastic bats that hit the ball when you push the buttons right are called flippers.


This is the best explanation I've seen (but that doesn't make it correct!):

https://www.corriere.it/Rubriche/Sciogl ... mbre.shtml

Essendo un inglese che da ragazzo ha investito un po' troppo denaro e tempo giocando a flipper, posso confermare che da noi la macchina in questione si chiama "pinball". In inglese "flipper" sono quelle alette azionate dai bottoni laterali del pinball che spingono la pallina verso l'alto.

Sono pronto a scommettere che l'uso italiano di "flipper" deriva dal fatto che la parola "flipper" è quasi sempre incisa su queste alette.
Il significato letterale di "flipper" è "natatoia". E detta "natatoia" (dal dizionario De Mauro) nei mammiferi acquatici, quell'arto trasformatosi filogeneticamente in organo per il nuoto.
Daniel Acton-Bond

EN:

As an Englishman who has spent too much money and time playing pinball, I can confirm that the machine in question is called "pinball". In English the "flippers" are those "fins" operated by the side buttons of the machine that push the ball upwards.

I am willing to bet that the Italian use of "pinball" derives from the fact that the word "flipper" is almost always engraved on these fins.
The literal meaning of "flipper" is "natatoia". In aquatic mammals, that limb which has evolved into a swimming organ is called a flipper.

[emphasis mine]
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Tue Feb 19, 2019 10:54 pm

Chung wrote:It's the other way around: IMperfective forms are used to describe incomplete or interrupted actions (~ they are not "perfect" / completed actions). Perfective forms are used to describe completed actions (~ they are "perfect" / completed actions)


Thank you, I went back and (hopefully) corrected what I screwed up. I can't keep perfective/imperfective straight AT ALL. No matter how many times I think about it logically or look at examples, at the end of the day they're nonsense words to me that I can't associate any meaning to, nor can I identify verbs as being perfective or imperfective. I tend to think of them as "root" verbs vs. verbs with "a prefix" even though sometimes that's not accurate because some imperfective forms seem to change a vowel or something in the middle.

You suggested some good advice and I'll try to make use of it. Thank you!


cjareck wrote:I figured out something interesting, and hopefully useful. There are some exceptions, but is seems to be a rule.
If you take "niedokonany" verb in a present tense and add a right prefix to it, you receive "dokonany" verb in the future tense:
czytam + prze => przeczytam
czytasz + prze => przeczytasz...


Thank you, cjareck, for all those examples. I'm going to spend some time with them and see if they can help me. I will also probably generate a bunch of example sentences using what was suggested here and post them to confirm that they make sense.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:14 pm

Quick question:

Is there a difference in meaning between the words:

zdanie
wyrażenie
fraza
zwrot


They are all listed as synonyms for the English word "phrase" and some seem to also mean "sentence".
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Wed Feb 20, 2019 2:47 pm

StringerBell wrote:zdanie
- this is the actual sentence
The rest

wyrażenie
fraza
zwrot

may be translated as "phrase", but this mostly applies to the "fraza" of course and maybe "zwrot". "Wyrażenie" may be also translated in this manner, however, I would say it is rather "expression". In the other context "zwrot" may also mean "turn" -> military -> "W lewo zwrot!" (Turn left!)
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