Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

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DaveAgain
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby DaveAgain » Wed Nov 27, 2019 12:11 pm

StringerBell wrote:
I don't feel like anything really improved. My spelling is still atrociously bad. I'm no better at knowing what all the millions of stupid articles are supposed to be (when speaking). I'm sure something must have gotten better, but I'm at a loss as to what it could be. Overall, I don't think transcription was worth the time/effort it took and I don't plan to do this again in the future. Maybe this is an activity that works much better for other people.

As I mentioned before, I've been thinking of doing a 1-week trial of what I'm hoping to start doing in January. But, I have to say that I'm quite sour on language learning at the moment, and part of me really wants to say F--- it and go back to just watching some Italian TV to maintain my comprehension and call it good. I'm worried that attempting challenges is counterproductive for me because I don't seem to ever improve as a result of them (and if anything, I end up doing worse mentally because I'm always disappointed in my lack of improvement).
I watched a presenation by a lady who used transcription for language learning the other day, How to learn a language by watching films and TV.

She also did double-translation from her transcription, and wrote summaries of the episodes. Perhaps you'd like to try that for one of your transcriptions and see if you find it helpful?
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Wed Nov 27, 2019 2:16 pm

Thanks, DaveAgain! That article was well written, I enjoyed reading it.

I think that I benefitted little-to-not-at-all from transcription because my listening comprehension was already quite good, so there wasn't much room for improvement in that area. I think this activity could be really useful for people who are still struggling with listening comprehension, so I don't want to give the impression that I think it's a waste of time for everybody - just me.

I don't feel like I really learned much (if anything) new in terms of vocabulary or expressions besides the odd word here and there. I found that when I rewatched each episode after some delay (during the correction phase) most of whatever had been new was still unlearned - it was like I was seeing it for the first time, even though I'd already listened/typed it out previously. So this doesn't seem to be an effective way for me to learn new words. I'd have to actually use those words multiple times myself to actually know them.

My take away from the article is that in order for me to get value out of transcription, I probably need to actually do something in addition - like write some plot summaries, for example. I could have easily done that without doing the transcription, so I think that the actual act of transcribing was not very useful to me on it's own.

Oh well, at least now I know something that doesn't work for me and I can cross it off the list.

********************

BTW, I was folding laundry with my husband the other day after having forgotten about it in the dryer, so of course everything was all wrinkled. He used one of my favorite Italian sayings (which I may have mentioned before) to describe how everything looked: "Sembra è uscito dal culo del cane". (Looks like it came out of the dog's ass.)
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Italian: Read 5,000 pages : 2045 / 5000
Italian: Write 50,000 words : 9100 / 50000
Season 4 Lucifer Italian transcripts I created: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Fri Nov 29, 2019 8:26 pm

ITALIAN:

Yesterday and today I've been trying out what I plan to do starting in January and Holy Cow! Not what I expected.

1) I had been thinking that the writing portion of the Output Challenge would be the most difficult: the most time-consuming, the most energy-draining, the most dreaded. I really suck at writing in Italian. However, I was able to write a few "How To" paragraphs of ~200 words without problem. Of course I made errors, but not as many as I was expecting. I was also able to encorporate some of the error corrections from yesterday's writing into today's writing. I think I knocked out 200 words written in about 10 minutes. I'm not sure that's how long it took, but it felt like it went quickly.

So starting in January I'll aim for at least 200 words/day (5 days/wk), which will bring me to 50,000 words/year. This is feeling very doable and I have a feeling it will lead to some improvements.

2) I had been thinking the R-L would go much quicker. Turns out, it took 37 min to listen to 14 pages worth of audiobook (~2.5 min/page). For some reason I was expecting about 1 minute per page. I'll have to double this number since I'll be listening to each chapter twice: once while reading along in English, once while reading along in Italian. This means ~1hr 15min per 15 pages (5min/page or 12 pages/hr)!!! Yikes.

However, the numbers don't totally add up:
This audiobook is 10 hours 40 min
The book has 326 pages. If I round down to 300 pages to account for pages without much text, that still comes to ~13 hour audiobook.

So I don't really know exactly how many pages I can realistically complete per day on average, but this portion of my plan will obviously take more time than I was thinking. Assuming 12 pages/hr is accurate, that means that to reach 5,000 pages in 1 year, I'll need to average 1.25 hours/day (at least for the R-L portion of the reading challenge, but I have a lot of audiobooks lined up). I'm not sure if I can make that happen, but I'll try. Once I drop R-L and just do straight reading, I should only need half that amount of time per day.

I haven't yet tested out the speaking spontaneously portion of the challenge, I'll probably do that in the next few days.

LATIN:

I haven't been doing any Latin since my first disappointing foray into Lingua Latina. I just hasn't occurred to me until it's the end of the day or not the right time. I'm not sure if it's sheer forgetfulness or because I find LL so off-putting that my subconscious is highjacking me. I keep seeing so many people raving about it, so I know it must get much better and consequently I don't want to give up on it. I'm going to try to read a little more in it today to see if I can break this weird block I have against it.
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Italian: Read 5,000 pages : 2045 / 5000
Italian: Write 50,000 words : 9100 / 50000
Season 4 Lucifer Italian transcripts I created: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby rdearman » Fri Nov 29, 2019 11:24 pm

You can always speed up the audio to say 1.5 speed which will cut the time by 25%. :)
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Elsa Maria » Sat Nov 30, 2019 3:43 pm

I am having the same experience with Assimil Dutch that you are having with Lingua Latina. I don't like the Assimil course, and as a consequence I am not-so-coincidentally finding it difficult to get around to working on Dutch. It's hard for me to think of programs that get more love here than Assimil and Lingua Latina :)
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Brun Ugle » Sat Nov 30, 2019 5:38 pm

Elsa Maria wrote:I am having the same experience with Assimil Dutch that you are having with Lingua Latina. I don't like the Assimil course, and as a consequence I am not-so-coincidentally finding it difficult to get around to working on Dutch. It's hard for me to think of programs that get more love here than Assimil and Lingua Latina :)

I like Assimil, but it’s not equally good in all languages. Also, I find that I need a more standard course alongside it.
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Mon Dec 02, 2019 12:53 am

rdearman wrote:You can always speed up the audio to say 1.5 speed which will cut the time by 25%. :)


I thought about that, but since the reason I'm doing this is to improve my passive vocabulary, I want to make sure I can hear the words clearly and with time to process the meaning. I'm a little worried that speeding up the audio might reduce my ability to give each word the attention it deserves. I may give this a try, just to see how it goes.

******************************

LATIN:

I have to say it: Lingua Latina killed my enthusiasm for Latin. I genuinely can't understand why this book has the reputation it does. It makes me feel like I'm crazy for being the only one who doesn't dig it. I finally went back to it, and after skipping the rest of the dry "geography" pages, I started in on the pages describing members of a family, who I assume will be front and center in future stories. The problem is that the first pages are so mindnumbingly boring and are clearly written solely for the purpose of hammering in case endings that I can't focus on them - I keep naturally skipping ahead to try to find something of interest. The problem is, there is nothing of interest ahead, and then suddenly I realized that I passed over all these dull sentences without getting from them what I'm supposed to get - so I go back and reread them for a few seconds until I inevitably start skipping ahead. I really don't get how I'm supposed to get into this book. I keep thinking it must get better, but when?

So in the midst of all this futzing around/procrastination with Lingua Latina, I lost both my enthusiasm and routine. I think the only chance I have to get it back is to reread the Cambridge Unit 1 as a brief refresher and then dive into Unit 2. I really don't want to give up on LL, but reading it feels like Chinese water torture.

ITALIAN:

I've been making excellent progress with my novel. I decided to count the actual pages, and it turns out there's 245 pages worth of text, which makes sense with the length of the audiobook and the average I calculated (2.5 min/page). In order for me to complete a SC within 1 year using this R-L format, I'll need 1hr 40 min/day, 5 days per week, 50 weeks. At first this seemed daunting, mainly because I was thinking that I'd have to do that in one solid block of time. I'm not a fan of stopping part way through chapters, but I've been doing 20-30 minutes here and there in the last days, and it can really add up. Also, knowing that I can stop whenever I want makes me paradoxically spend much longer doing R-L. When I was aiming to do a complete chapter twice in one sitting, I was kind of dreading it, and then avoiding it.

When I woke up this morning, I started thinking about how I should record myself to see how it felt to talk for 10 minutes nonstop. I started thinking about a topic in my head, and was surprised by how fluid it felt. I thought: I'm going to nail this! Well, I should have recorded myself shortly after doing my mental monologue, but I didn't get around to it until the evening. I couldn't recreate whatever I had been thinking at all - I think the pressure of being timed and recorded gave me an instant block. I did manage to talk for 10 minutes, but boy was it labored and awful. I'm hoping that as I get used to this format, sentences will start flowing more easily. Even though it was labored, I think that talking for 10 minutes/day is definitely doable.

I've also been writing 200+ words/day, and that also feels very doable. All in all, I think that the combo 1 yr SC/Output Challenge is within reach.

POLISH:

Where it might get a little sticky is doing a SC in Polish. 1hr 40 min/day for 5 days is only ~8.3 hours/week. Considering that I did a full year of 21 hours/week, I don't know why 8.3 hours would be unattainable. I just have to get back into the mindset of using my time more efficiently. I'm hoping that focusing on reading/listening will help to revive my passion for Polish, because it's what I really enjoy doing. I only started having problems when I tried to learn and apply grammar in an attempt to improve my speaking ability. As long as I can accept that I will never speak this language even at a basic level decently, I might be able to just enjoy it passively.
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Italian: Read 5,000 pages : 2045 / 5000
Italian: Write 50,000 words : 9100 / 50000
Season 4 Lucifer Italian transcripts I created: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby lavengro » Mon Dec 02, 2019 1:07 am

StringerBell wrote:ITALIAN:

I've been working like a fiend this past week; I finally finished transcribing all 10 episodes of Lucifer (episodes 9 and 10 are awaiting corrections). ....

Grazie mille StringerBell for making all your hard work available to other learners! I am looking forward to using your transcripts to improve my listening comprehension, and expect what you have created will be a tremendous resource for many.
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Fri Dec 06, 2019 8:40 pm

lavengro wrote:Grazie mille StringerBell for making all your hard work available to other learners! I am looking forward to using your transcripts to improve my listening comprehension, and expect what you have created will be a tremendous resource for many.


Thanks! I hope you make use of them, because I'm not sure anyone else will! I don't know why it's taking so long to get the last remaining 2 episodes corrected and posted, but hopefully I'll get that done soon.

************************************************

ITALIAN:

I have 13% left in my audiobook. Doing R-L (listening 2x in Italian, reading 1x in English, 1x in Italian) has been taking awhile but I think it's worth it. My comprehension when I get to reading+listening in Italian is significantly better than if I didn't do the first pass with an English text. I decided that after doing ~3 books using R-L, I'm going to cycle back and read through the Italian books without the audiobook since multiple readings are allowed in the SC.

I feel like I'm on the verge of a jump in Italian; I've been thinking more in Italian and speaking/writing is starting to feel easier and more intuitive. I still have a long way to go, but something is definitely happening.

I've been picking up some really fun and useful expressions from my novel. My favorite is:
Che barba! = what a drag! (lit: what a beard)
È stata una barba = it was a drag (lit: it was a beard)


My choice of books is predominately novels written in first person or non-fiction. I am being extra careful to avoid the dreaded passato remoto narration because my goal in reading is to help improve my speaking. My current novel is multiple-character first-person narration, and I notice that during certain passages where a character is recounting something that happened decades ago, it slips into passato remoto - these passages feel completely useless to me. I wish it weren't so difficult to find writing that accurately reflects how people speak. This really makes me appreciate that this problem doesn't exist in English or Polish.

*****I read in Eido's log where she mentioned switching her Quora account into Spanish. I had always assumed that Quora was a pay site (I don't know why). I was inspired to create an account (for free!) and switched my settings into Italian. It seems like there are a ton of language options. You have to choose a minimum of 10 categories to follow (kind of like Reddit). In about 5 minutes, I had a huge feed populated with a massive amount of Italian content in the form of posts, questions, comments, etc. It's like creating a massive social media feed without having to do the work of figuring out who to follow. This is such a great time-saving hack. Thank you, Eido!

POLISH:

I started relistening to old intermediate Real Polish podcasts that I knew very well (at least at some point). To my surprise, I was able to understand them very easily. It looks like I haven't forgotten everything! I decided that I would do a little refreshing from now until January, when I start my R-L challenge in Polish.

LATIN:

Still haven't gotten back in the swing of things... I'm having a hard time re-establishing my routine. Since my in-laws will be here in a few days, I think I'll wait for January to try to resume this language.
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Italian: Read 5,000 pages : 2045 / 5000
Italian: Write 50,000 words : 9100 / 50000
Season 4 Lucifer Italian transcripts I created: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sat Dec 07, 2019 2:47 pm

Finished my first novel using R-L!

I already mentioned that even though reading through a novel twice is time consuming, I am seeing immediate benefits. I'm repeating this more as a note to myself, so that I don't feel tempted to give up in it prematurely due to impatience. Aside from a 100% comprehension (which I think is enough on its own) I'm also starting to assimilate verb tenses, specifically trickier ones that always feel elusive when I want to use them. While things are not always translated 100%, there is something extremely effective about repeatedly seeing certain constructions (like: "I would have been") while hearing them in another language. It's a really chill, pleasant way to reinforce stuff that otherwise would be brutally boring.

I was originally planning to count this first novel in my SC starting in Jan because I won't be able to properly start until the second week of January. Now I'm thinking I won't count this reading toward anything, and when January rolls around, I'll reread the book I just finished without doing R-L. It will be interesting to see what I remember and how easy/difficult it is.

I'm calling what I'm planning to do a SC, but maybe I shouldn't. My goal is to complete 5,000 pages in 1 year. I'm not planning to keep track of "films"/audio because that part of the SC doesn't interest me. I'm also not starting when the SC officially starts, so maybe calling it "SC" is more confusing than useful. Perhaps I should call it my "5,000 pages in 1 Yr" challenge. Typing "SC" is a lot easier, though!
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Italian: Read 5,000 pages : 2045 / 5000
Italian: Write 50,000 words : 9100 / 50000
Season 4 Lucifer Italian transcripts I created: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts


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