Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

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StringerBell
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Mon Nov 18, 2019 1:49 pm

Morgana wrote:What if it was just Polish, this language that seems impossible, but the fact that it seems impossible doesn't bother you, because you're going to try anyway? And it doesn't matter if it is impossible, because you don't have expectations? And even if it's impossible, if you keep going, there's no way you could be any worse than you are now, just as how you are now with Polish isn't any worse than when you started (in fact, it's much better).


I think you're right about expectations being the key to this thing. When I had a similar block with Italian a year ago, the way I got over it was to convince myself that I'd never be able to speak Italian - that I was terrible, there was no way I could ever hope get much better than I was, but so what? Even if I could only make tiny, microscopic improvements that was still better than the nothing that I was capable of. As soon as I embraced this mentality it was like a switch flipped: my expectations disappeared and I enjoyed talking and LE again. This is probably the opposite of what would work for most people, but it's been the only thing so far that seems to get rid of my expectations. I think I will start trying to apply this to Polish. Thank you for the suggestion!
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Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 10 / 10 Woo-hoo! Finally done
Link to the Italian transcripts I created for season 4 Lucifer: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

StringerBell
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Wed Nov 20, 2019 5:35 pm

ITALIAN:

I finished transcribing episode 8 of Lucifer. Two episodes left! I'm going to try to get started on episode 9 more quickly rather than taking my usual week(s) of downtime.

We just booked airplane tickets for my Italian in-laws to come for Xmas. This will be the longest time they have ever stayed with us (a little over 4 weeks) which we decided to do because it was the only way to find a good price. Since they won't be returning home until the second week of January, this will postpone my SC start date a bit. I'm hoping the "Italian immersion" goes a little better this year. I've already decided not to try to avoid speaking English, as this kind of challenge backfired spectacularly last year. But I will do my best to speak as much as I feel capable of.

LATIN:

I read a couple of pages in Lingua Latina. So far I'm not impressed, but I'm trying to reserve judgment until I get past the beginning. There's no convenient glossary of terms on the same page like with Cambridge, so I'll have to look up unknown words online, which I find irritating. There are some little notes in the margins, some of which are referring to things that I already understand because I learned them from the Cambridge, but there are some notes that I don't understand - they might as well be written in hieroglyphics. I have no idea what they're trying to tell me.

There's plenty of repetition, which is good (Italy is a country in Europe. Greece is a country in Europe. Italy and Greece are countries in Europe, etc...) but so far it's dry as toast and I'm having a hard time motivating myself to read it. I really hope it starts focusing more on stories and less on stating geographical facts. I'm glad I didn't start out with this book because I think I would have given up on Latin pretty quickly.
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Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 10 / 10 Woo-hoo! Finally done
Link to the Italian transcripts I created for season 4 Lucifer: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

StringerBell
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sat Nov 23, 2019 4:45 am

ITALIAN:

I'm done with Anki. I was thinking for awhile there that it could be a practical way to study/practice grammar from the PMP book, but I had a startling revelation: It doesn't work. Not much of a revelation since I kind of already knew this, but I periodically return to it thinking that maybe this time will be different. I thought I had finally fixed my issue with spelling differences between future tense/conditional tense for 1st person plural (which I have to memorize because I can't hear a difference). I was confident that I had it down cold after practicing with variations for weeks and weeks.

Then while transcribing episode 9 in the past two days, I realized I had no idea how to spell the future tense vs. conditional (faremo/faremmo) - I thought I'd been doing it right during that episode but it turns out I wasn't. Even after an impromptu refresher, I still have no idea whether future is potremo or potremmo. WTH? I spent such a freaking long time with those damn Anki cards. What a waste of time. I guess whatever I don't know I'll continue to not know until I find something that actually works for me.

I'm ready to be done with transcribing. I would just stop right now, since I'm confident that it's not helping me anymore, but I committed to doing all 10 episodes, so I'm going to finish. I unexpectedly had some down time from work in the last couple of days, so I dove right into episode 9, which I'm 65% done with. I won't say that transcribing is a waste of time, since I'm definitely making fewer mistakes than I was making in the first few episodes. But I think I've maxed out what I can get from this activity since once I hit episode ~4 or ~5 I don't seem to be improving. So I guess transcribing isn't a silver bullet, either.

Since it seems like there's a good chance I'll be able to finish transcribing by the end of November, I've been thinking about doing a 1 week test drive the first week of December to see how feasible my SC/R-L/output challenge plans are. If my expectations are way too ambitious, I think it will be obvious pretty quickly and I can adjust what I start doing in January to be more reasonable.
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Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 10 / 10 Woo-hoo! Finally done
Link to the Italian transcripts I created for season 4 Lucifer: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

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Brun Ugle
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Brun Ugle » Sat Nov 23, 2019 9:25 am

Is the difference between the tenses always just a matter of an extra m? If it is, why not just make yourself some sort of mnemonic to remind yourself which one gets the extra m?
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StringerBell
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sat Nov 23, 2019 2:11 pm

The one I have the most trouble with is the difference between future vs. conditional for "we"

faremo: we will do
farremmo: we would do

There are other times when letters are doubled (or not) that I still struggle with, but this is the worst one. I can't figure out a mnemonic that helps with this. If you (or anyone else) have a suggestion for a mnenonic for this situation, I'd very happily give it a try.

I have other problems that I though practicing with Anki would help (but didn't). For example, I mix up the way "ai" and "ei" sound constantly. So when I see "vorrei" or "vorrai" I have to pause and think about which way they are pronounced. I have this problem also when speaking; I'm sometimes not sure which one to say. No matter how much I practice with them, I can't make the distinction automatic.

I think that unfortunately, some things I'm just not capable of "knowing". For example, I don't actually know which is left vs. right (in English); every single time I have to think about it using a mnemonic. Even though it's annoying, it doesn't impact speaking, because it's not like I have to stop mid conversation to search for a word or a pronunciation; I can decide in my head ahead of time whether I need to say left/right. I think this would be an issue when it comes to using mnemonics for pronunciation/spelling if I'm trying to speak/write in real time.
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Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 10 / 10 Woo-hoo! Finally done
Link to the Italian transcripts I created for season 4 Lucifer: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

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Postby Morgana » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:02 pm

Last edited by Morgana on Mon Nov 25, 2019 10:17 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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StringerBell
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sat Nov 23, 2019 11:12 pm

Morgana wrote:Excuse this very extremely lame attempt at coming up with something:

Conditional is a longer word than future.
Farremmo is a longer word than faremo.
Would is a longer word than will...
?
It was worth a shot lol...


I appreciate the effort! I think it would take me about an hour to use that line of reasoning to figure out the right word, unfortunately I don't think it would work in a real-time conversation!

Morgana wrote:Another thing that comes to mind is I think it was Olle Kjellin who recommended against learning two similar things together, because you’ll forever associate them with one another and have difficulty separating them. I assume the takeaway from that is to work on one until you know it really well before learning/working on the other. No idea if this can be rectified after the fact.


I actually did try doing it this way - I stuck with repeatedly reviewing only future tenses for more than a month until I thought I was forever cemented in my brain. Then, I started reviewing the conditional tenses and after a few days it was like I'd never done any practicing at all with anything! I'm just as confused as I was initially. I think I'm a lost cause!
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Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 10 / 10 Woo-hoo! Finally done
Link to the Italian transcripts I created for season 4 Lucifer: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

dampingwire
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby dampingwire » Sun Nov 24, 2019 5:00 pm

I doubt it will help in a conversation but ...

potrebbe goes with potremmo

That's always assuming that you're fine with potrebbe ... but I can't think of another tense that comes close to -ebbe.

However, as you can't hear the difference, how can you tell which it is supposed to be anyway when you are transcribing? Sometimes context will help but I suspect that there must be many cases where it's not obvious.
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StringerBell
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sun Nov 24, 2019 11:57 pm

dampingwire wrote:potrebbe goes with potremmo


This is helpful! I'm going to try to think about it like this, maybe it will help.

dampingwire wrote:That's always assuming that you're fine with potrebbe

However, as you can't hear the difference, how can you tell which it is supposed to be anyway when you are transcribing? Sometimes context will help but I suspect that there must be many cases where it's not obvious.


I am fine with "potrebbe".

I actually often can't tell which tense it's supposed to be when transcribing. Sometimes it's obvious from context, but there are lots of situations where it could be either tense so I usually just pick one randomly. Verb tenses are something that I've always struggled with, and no amount of input or drilling seems to make it any easier.
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Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 10 / 10 Woo-hoo! Finally done
Link to the Italian transcripts I created for season 4 Lucifer: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

StringerBell
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Wed Nov 27, 2019 1:10 am

ITALIAN:

I've been working like a fiend this past week; I finally finished transcribing all 10 episodes of Lucifer (episodes 9 and 10 are awaiting corrections).

Was it worth it?

The short answer is: I don't think so.

I don't feel like anything really improved. My spelling is still atrociously bad. I'm no better at knowing what all the millions of stupid articles are supposed to be (when speaking). I'm sure something must have gotten better, but I'm at a loss as to what it could be. Overall, I don't think transcription was worth the time/effort it took and I don't plan to do this again in the future. Maybe this is an activity that works much better for other people.

As I mentioned before, I've been thinking of doing a 1-week trial of what I'm hoping to start doing in January. But, I have to say that I'm quite sour on language learning at the moment, and part of me really wants to say F--- it and go back to just watching some Italian TV to maintain my comprehension and call it good. I'm worried that attempting challenges is counterproductive for me because I don't seem to ever improve as a result of them (and if anything, I end up doing worse mentally because I'm always disappointed in my lack of improvement).

Today's LE was particularly difficult. It felt like I was struggling with practically every sentence.

Anyway, to celebrate the completion of my challenge, we're having some really good steaks that I had tucked away in the freezer for a special occasion...but upon setting everything up, we discovered the meat thermometer is broken. Will they be raw? Overdone?
Chi lo sa?
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Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 10 / 10 Woo-hoo! Finally done
Link to the Italian transcripts I created for season 4 Lucifer: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts


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