Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
StringerBell
Blue Belt
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 am
Languages: English (n)
Italian: ~ C1 reading/listening and ? speaking
Polish : ~ B1
x 1887

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:27 pm

StringerBell wrote:[2] Non-Masculine Personal Plurals (women, and ALL other nouns including objects and animals)


Ser wrote:I guess my explanation was not clear enough. :(


I very much appreciated your explanation, but I'm still not sure how "Personal Plurals" could include objects such as food.
0 x
Polish goal: 1,850 hours : 1493 / 1850
Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 1 / 10

StringerBell
Blue Belt
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 am
Languages: English (n)
Italian: ~ C1 reading/listening and ? speaking
Polish : ~ B1
x 1887

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Thu Jun 20, 2019 11:40 pm

I hate to admit it, but trying to understand how to pluralize nouns in Polish has me incredibly demotivated - to the point of wanting to give up. I haven't felt this way about Polish in a long time, maybe not even ever. I'm not planning to give up, just venting a little. I have a lot of other frustrating things going on at the moment, so maybe that's making me seeing this more insurmountable than it really is. I thought the Italian system for pluralizing was also really fucking awful when I first learned it, but now it doesn't seem so bad, so hopefully if I just stick with it, this too will seem doable at some point. Having a native language where you basically just stick "s" at the end to make most words plural makes pretty much every other language's strategy seem unnecessarily convoluted and awful. Maybe I'll look back at this next year and find it really amazing that I was having such a hard time with this concept. I hope.
3 x
Polish goal: 1,850 hours : 1493 / 1850
Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 1 / 10

User avatar
Ser
Green Belt
Posts: 334
Joined: Thu Dec 01, 2016 5:28 am
Location: Vancouver, British Columbia, Canada
Languages: Spanish (N), English (feels like another mother tongue but it's not), French (intermediate), Latin/Ancient Greek/Mandarin (still sucking at them)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8737
x 775

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Ser » Fri Jun 21, 2019 3:30 am

StringerBell wrote:
StringerBell wrote:[2] Non-Masculine Personal Plurals (women, and ALL other nouns including objects and animals)
Ser wrote:I guess my explanation was not clear enough. :(

I very much appreciated your explanation, but I'm still not sure how "Personal Plurals" could include objects such as food.

Oh, I guess the punctuation is confusing you. The prefix "non-" is attaching to both "masculine" and "personal" ("non-[masculine personal] plurals"), so that term refers to everything that is not inside the "masculine and personal/human" category, which would include masculine animals, masculine objects, and anything with the feminine or neuter genders.

StringerBell wrote:I hate to admit it, but trying to understand how to pluralize nouns in Polish has me incredibly demotivated - to the point of wanting to give up. I haven't felt this way about Polish in a long time, maybe not even ever. I'm not planning to give up, just venting a little. I have a lot of other frustrating things going on at the moment, so maybe that's making me seeing this more insurmountable than it really is. I thought the Italian system for pluralizing was also really fucking awful when I first learned it, but now it doesn't seem so bad, so hopefully if I just stick with it, this too will seem doable at some point. Having a native language where you basically just stick "s" at the end to make most words plural makes pretty much every other language's strategy seem unnecessarily convoluted and awful. Maybe I'll look back at this next year and find it really amazing that I was having such a hard time with this concept. I hope.

Yeah, maybe you're being forced either by the textbook or by yourself to learn this stuff too quickly. Take it easy, review a little bit at different times of the day, sleep on it.

By the way, it's true English has undergone a great amount of regularization during the past millennium, but there are still quite a few irregularities... There are irregular plurals (goose - geese), identical singulars and plurals (one sheep - three sheep), strangely formed nouns (mothers-in-law, courts martial), learnèd foreign plurals (crisis - crises, cherub - cherubim/cherubs, one ninja - three ninja/ninjas), particular academic uses (sociologies, wisdoms, stupidities...), singulars that look like plurals (darts the game, mathematics, the United States), and a slew of special cases (person - people/persons - peoples, mouse - hairy mice / obsolete mouses, the datum was collected - the data were collected, or as a mass noun: the data was collected...).
Last edited by Ser on Sat Jun 22, 2019 5:33 am, edited 1 time in total.
3 x

User avatar
cjareck
Green Belt
Posts: 425
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:11 pm
Location: Poland
Languages: Polish (N) English, German, Russian(B1?) French (B1?), Hebrew(B1?), Arabic(A2?)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8589
x 592
Contact:

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:47 am

Ser wrote:I think that's quite clear... I speculate referring to any people at all as "dogs" must be very insulting in most cultures. :)


Yes, but I wanted to make it 100% clear. It wouldn't be a good idea to annoy policemen like that ;)

By the way, calling someone "ty psie" is rather old and may be spotted in old novels rather than heard on the streets. We use "sukinsyn" instead, which is identical to the "son of the bitch" since "suka" is female dog. That is also used and can be heard quite often.
One of my favourite scenes from the epic "Battle of Britain has the word "sukinsyn" (during dogfight about 1:20)

The scene itself was inspired by the real event - the first kill of the 303rd Squadron was made during a training flight. A pilot has abandoned a formation without permission and made a kill - > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._303_S ... AF#History
3 x
Please feel free to correct me in any language
FSI Hebrew Basic Course
: 39 / 40

Avigdor Kahalani, עז 77 (Heigths of Courage)
: 14 / 200


DLI MSA Basic Course
: 11 / 140
Polish course Arabic for beginners
: 2 / 40

Charlar_mas
White Belt
Posts: 12
Joined: Wed Jun 19, 2019 2:28 pm
Languages: English (N), French (B2), Spanish (B2), Russian (beginner), Italian (beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... ilit=sllog
x 20

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Charlar_mas » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:23 am

Ser wrote:
It's English that's weird for being able to do that positively in the expression "top dog", as in "those guys are the top dogs of robotics" (that is, they're the best).


To say nothing of the fact that calling something "the dog's b*******" means it's brilliant. :lol:
1 x

aquarius
White Belt
Posts: 37
Joined: Wed Jan 03, 2018 5:05 pm
Languages: German (N), English, French, Italian, Spanish (a bit), Catalan (a bit), Polish (learning), Slovak (a bit)
x 44

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby aquarius » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:43 pm

Ser wrote:
StringerBell wrote:
StringerBell wrote:[2] Non-Masculine Personal Plurals (women, and ALL other nouns including objects and animals)
Ser wrote:I guess my explanation was not clear enough. :(

I very much appreciated your explanation, but I'm still not sure how "Personal Plurals" could include objects such as food.

Oh, I guess the punctuation is confusing you. The prefix "non-" is attaching to both "masculine" and "personal" ("non-[masculine personal] plurals"), so that term refers to everything that is not inside the "masculine and personal/human" category, which would include masculine animals, masculine objects, and anything with the feminine or neuter genders.

On Thursday, when we were on our journey back from Poland to Germany, I was thinking a bit about an answer to StringerBell's question, and on Friday morning, I saw that Ser had explained in short and precise words the same that I also had in mind. Well done!

I'd just like to give some additional information.

The Polish terminology is:

[1] męskoosobowy
męski = male, osobowy = refering to a person
rzeczownik męskoosobowy = noun refering to a maculine person
Example: (PL:) student = male student

As far as plural is concerned, the following applies: accusative case (biernik) = genetive case (dopełniacz).

Example:
Ambasada Włoch zaprasza studentów zagranicznych oraz studentów będących obywatelami włoskimi, mieszkającymi za granicą do ubiegania się o stypendia rządu włoskiego na rok akademicki 2019/2020 Stypendia rządu włoskiego 2019_2020
https://bwz.uni.lodz.pl/

As a generic masculine, these nouns can also be used to describe persons irrespective of gender, so the Polish word 'student' can also mean student irrespective of gender, as it is the case in the example above.

[2] niemęskoosobowy
rzeczownik niemęskoosobowy = noun NOT refering to a maculine person
Example: (PL:) studentka = female student

As far as plural is concerned, the following applies: accusative case (biernik) = nominative case (mianownik).

Example:
Urząd Komunikacji Elektronicznej zaprasza studentki do wzięcia udziału w konkursie „Dziewczyny w Nowych Technologiach”, którego celem jest promocja udziału kobiet w sektorze nowoczesnych technologii.
http://laboratoria.net/aktualnosci/20924.html

This invitation is explicitely aimed at women.


Feel free to give commentaries to what I have written.
3 x

StringerBell
Blue Belt
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 am
Languages: English (n)
Italian: ~ C1 reading/listening and ? speaking
Polish : ~ B1
x 1887

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:15 pm

Thank you, aquarius. That was helpful.

Ser wrote:Oh, I guess the punctuation is confusing you. The prefix "non-" is attaching to both "masculine" and "personal" ("non-[masculine personal] plurals"), so that term refers to everything that is not inside the "masculine and personal/human" category, which would include masculine animals, masculine objects, and anything with the feminine or neuter genders.


Yes, I think it was the punctuation confusing me. It's clear now, thank you!

POLISH:

I've decided to completely ignore plurals at the moment, and I may just decide to pretend they don't exist forever. :roll:

I'm now 50% through my Preston book (pg 80), and moving on to other topics has been just what I needed to get out of the funk I was in about Polish.

As I'm going through the book, I keep remembering what it was like to start with grammar rules, word lists, declension tables, etc... when I initially started trying to learn Polish ~10 years ago and what a complete nightmare that was. Now that I have a good amount of CI, I'm finding that most of what's in the book makes me say, "aha! so that's what's going on!" It feels like I can absorb most of it relatively well (except for the whole pluralization nightmare). I don't know why it keeps shocking me just how much better it is to learn grammar once I already have a grip on vocabulary and sentence structure and common phrases. I know some people do really well with learning grammar first (so I don't want to debate anything), but I really just don't get how they do it.

Right now, my routine looks like this:
1) 4 pages of the Preston book, writing out the rules/points in a notebook, then doing the translation practice, checking my answers against the book, and rewriting anything that I didn't translate 100% correctly. This has been taking me ~1 hour.

2) Watch 1-2 episodes of Rodzinka.pl (they are ~20 min each) and occasionally jotting down notes, but often writing nothing. A few of the recent things I've learned from the show: nie pali się = there's no rush (there's the "się" at the end!), akurat teraz nie = not right now. "akurat" is one of those slippery words that keeps showing up with slightly different meanings and I feel like I can never get a grip on it.

3) 1 new level of Memrise with some speed reviewing (~15-20 minutes)

4) time permitting, something relating to my audiobook; either relistening to an older chapter, reading a new chapter in Eng, then listening+reading to it in Polish, or intensively rereading a chapter with a lot of note-taking OR watching/rewatching Ultraviolet w/ subs.

Once I'm done with the Preston book, I think I'll try to incorporate more writing into my routine, because that is sorely lacking and possibly taking some lessons with the tutor that PP mentioned.

ITALIAN:

I've listened to another 2 episodes of the Alle Otto della Sera podcast La Società dei Ghetti. Each episode is 20 minutes long, so it's easy to fit one in while I'm doing something mindless.

I'm currently testing out some new Italian podcasts to see if I can find anything interesting. The podcasts I'm currently test-driving: 100 Cose Belle; Fottuti Geni; Milano, Europa; Radio3 Scienza.

I finished episode 7 of Lucifer in Italian. This last episode felt exceptionally easy to understand. I wrote down a bunch of useful phrases/sentences as a reminder, like: quello che mi pare = whatever I want and mi metto sempre nei guai = I'm always getting myself into trouble. And I learned that la cauzione = bail, so: Lui ha già pagato la cauzione = he already made bail. There was a point where Lucifer said, "sono andato fuori del seminato" which I've never heard before. From context, I think it means something like "I was really out of line" but I'll have to find out about that one.

No LATIN in the past few days. Was extra busy + headache. I could have probably figured out a way to make it happen, but I'm doing this for fun, so I don't want to stress about fitting it in.
6 x
Polish goal: 1,850 hours : 1493 / 1850
Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 1 / 10

StringerBell
Blue Belt
Posts: 731
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 am
Languages: English (n)
Italian: ~ C1 reading/listening and ? speaking
Polish : ~ B1
x 1887

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:50 pm

ITALIAN:

I finally decided to start on my massive, totally overwhelming Italian project: creating a transcript for season 4 of Lucifer. I still have to figure out where to post this online so that others can make use of it, but I have some time to figure that out.

I spent an obscene amount of time transcribing ~7 minutes of the first episode today. I knew this would be challenging, but man, this is really hard. I read through what I'd written so far with my husband, who corrected all my little mistakes. I'm still on the fence about how useful this project will be for me; my hope is that it forces me to listen for tiny details that I'm currently ignoring or just not hearing at all.

I'm not planning to work on this every day, but I'd like to chip away at it consistently.

In more boring news, I finished Chapter 7 of Practice Makes Perfect and I listened to 2 more podcasts from La Società dei Ghetti. I've also been listening more to the Milano, Europa podcast from Piano P.

Now for the juicy stuff: cursing! If you have a sensitive constitution, avert your eyes.

Here is some really fun Italian cursing I learned yesterday in order of "polite" to "most vulgar":
(polite): Fare le cose alla carlona = to do things half-assed
(vulgar): Fare le cose col culo = to do things half-assed (lit: to do things with the ass)
(most vulgar): Fare le cose alla cazzo di cane = to do things half-assed (lit: to do things dog-dick style)

When my husband was explaining that last one, he said he never before thought about how weird it was and we spent a good time laughing about it.

*If something looks really messed up, such as a shirt that you take off and scrunch up, jam it in a drawer, and eventually take it out months later and it's a wrinkled mess, you could say that it "sembra uscito/uscita dal culo del cane" (it seems like it came out of the dog's ass). My husband tended to be a bit sloppy, so his mother was always yelling, "Ma, dai! Guarda qua, questa camicia sembra uscita dal culo del cane!"

AND!!! I learned about an Italian show that's fun: Love Bugs. It's from 2004, and there are some full episodes available on YT:
2 x
Polish goal: 1,850 hours : 1493 / 1850
Italian goal: transcribe 10 episodes of Lucifer : 1 / 10

dampingwire
Green Belt
Posts: 434
Joined: Tue Aug 04, 2015 8:11 pm
Location: Abingdon, UK
Languages: Italian (N), English (N), French (poor, not studying), Japanese (studying, JLPT N3)
x 410

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby dampingwire » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:34 pm

StringerBell wrote:There was a point where Lucifer said, "sono andato fuori del seminato" which I've never heard before. From context, I think it means something like "I was really out of line" but I'll have to find out about that one.


I suppose it depends a bit on the context but the meaning is either:
to lose your way in an argument or to drift off topic (in an essay or a talk or whatever)
or
to fail to stick to the rules in some way

So depending on the context "I was out of line" (i.e. I transgressed in some way) would work, but it could also have been "I lost the thread of the argument", "I was rambling".

"il seminato" is where you've planted the seeds, so you've lost your way or you've deviated from where you should be (or at least that's what I think it's origin is).
3 x
新完全マスター N2聴解 : 94 / 103新完全マスター N2読解 : 99 / 177
新完全マスター N2文法 : 197 / 197TY Comp. German : 0 / 389

User avatar
ロータス
Blue Belt
Posts: 565
Joined: Sun Jun 05, 2016 2:33 pm
Languages: English (N), Mandarin (HSK 2/TOCFL 1), Korean (Beg)
x 685

Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby ロータス » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:34 pm

StringerBell wrote:ITALIAN:

I finally decided to start on my massive, totally overwhelming Italian project: creating a transcript for season 4 of Lucifer. I still have to figure out where to post this online so that others can make use of it, but I have some time to figure that out.


Wordpress
1 x
Reading in one language | Learn by Reading
步伐多慢无关紧要,只要你坚持不懈。
~Confucius


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: an onyme and 2 guests