Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

[Brun Ugle]

You can only count it as reading if you are actually reading in the target language. So for LR, if you are reading in English and listening to Polish, you can count the audio as a “film” (all listening counts under the “film” portion), but you can’t count the book since it’s not in Polish.

If you are reading in Polish and listening in Polish you can count either the reading or the listening, but not both. So you either count the audiobook as listening/“film” according to the number of minutes, or you can count the written book as a book according to the number of pages. If you LR the same book twice both listening and reading Polish, you could count it as a “book” one time and as a “film” the other time or count both times the same way.

[StringerBell]

thanks for the help with SC details!

************

quick update (yes, I am capable of those ):

ITALIAN:

1) 25% done with transcription of Lucifer episode 5.

2) ~1/2 done with "intensive" listening of my 5th Diary of a Wimpy Kid book (in audiobook form). I got the English ebook from my library, and I'm doing R-L to help me pick out the unknowns from the audio. Doing it this way is much more effective that just plain listening. I'm picking up a few things that I didn't notice at all, despite multiple listens. My favorite is "a palla" (to crank it up/to blast) as in: Ho messo l'aria condizionata a palla. (I cranked up the A/C.). I've made a point to use this expression several times.

3) Have watched 8/10 episodes of season 5 of Toribidi Delitti. There are a total of 3 seasons available with 10 episodes each, so I've watched 28/30 in total, making Anki cards for new words for all episodes.

4) For the past few weeks I've been doing 2 Italian LE per week with the same person. I speak in Italian the whole time, and he speaks in English the whole time. Playing games like 20 Questions, Would You Rather, and 2 Truths and a Lie have made our LEs really fun and prompted discussion of a lot of topics that otherwise wouldn't have come up.

My priorities right now are to finish transcribing Lucifer and to finish the last little bit of the edX course.

LATIN:

-Finished Chapter/Stage 9, so I am 75% done with the Cambridge book. Slow and steady wins the race. I'm not doing Latin every day, it's more like 4-5 days per week, sometimes a little less. I got really distracted during yesterday's story when I read that the name of one characters was "Anthrax". I went down a little rabbit hole of reading about the etymology of the word, trying to understand what would inspire someone to give their kid such a terrible name. I'm still not quite sure.

[StringerBell]

-50% done with transcribing Lucifer episode 5. I'm going to have to figure out a way to reward myself for doing challenge when I finish all 10 episodes.

-I rewatched the videos from 4.2 of the edX Italian course. It deals with when to use imperfetto tense vs. passato prossimo. The first time I did this section, I felt my eyes glazing over and I couldn't really make sense of what she was explaining. I noticed that in the next days, I was paying attention to the way imperfetto was used in the Diary of the Wimpy Kid audiobook, and something started making sense, even if I still didn't feel like I had a grasp on it. Now that I've rewatched all the video explanations, it's definitely making more sense than before. I'll probably have to rewatch these videos several more times, but it's a nice feeling that something is starting to click. Maybe one day I will actually use verb tenses somewhat correctly.

-I tried something new during my last LE; my LEP and I each had 1 minute to discuss a topic. I chose "beer". In reality, we each needed 1.5 minutes, so next time I'll probably change it to 2 minutes, maybe eventually 5 minutes. Since we were talking on the spot, it was just stream of consciousness. The other person jotted some notes about specific errors that seemed worth discussing. Overall, I was actually fairly pleased with how I did, even with my errors.

The errors he pointed out were:
1) I said lungo tempo > I should say "tanto tempo". I think this is because obviously in English it's "long time" but also because "da lunga data" tricks me into thinking I can use that word where it doesn't belong.

2) I used passato prossimo when I should have used imperfetto. Since I had just rewatched the edX video series on this topic, when he was pointing out why it was wrong, the explanation actually made sense. So I can't apply it consistently, but at least I can understand why I'm saying it wrong.

3) I said "iniziato di" instead of "iniziato a". I was able to memorize some of the right particles that go after verbs awhile ago, but there are still a bunch that I consistently get wrong. I think I need to go back to practicing with this. Anki cards didn't work well for memorizing this, so I think I need to maybe pick one per day and just come up with a few sentences until it's automatic.

We're going to try to make this (talking nonstop for a few minutes on a topic without preparation) a regular thing that we do during our conversations. We were both a bit anxious about it beforehand, but afterward we both realized that it wasn't worth being anxious about. I recommend trying this during a LE to anyone who hasn't tried it yet.

[StringerBell]

ITALIAN:

-Finished intensive listening of the Diary of a Wimpy Kid audiobook Portami a Casa (The Long Haul). I'm kind of embarrassed by how much I'm enjoying these books. They're hilarious! Now I have a bunch of Anki cards to work on.

-I unintentionally went through my backlog of several hundred Anki cards from my TV episodes. I hadn't done any Anki reviews in a month, so they really piled up. I meant to just do maybe 20, but some setting must have gotten changed because it just kept giving me card after card. By the time I realized it was lasting too long, I figured I'd keep going a little more, and then I couldn't believe that there could still be that much left, so why not finish the next few cards because surely this must end at some point soon... then it was 2 hours later and I was finally done. I think most of them are going to spring back at me tomorrow, so this is only a temporary victory!

LATIN:

Some thoughts about Cambridge Latin... I thought that the text used the imperfect weirdly at times. For example, from page 142:

Statua nāsum frāctum habēbat. The statue was having a broken nose? That sounds odd. Why not use the perfect? I recall asking my instructor about this, but I do not recall getting an adequate answer!

I've been noticing quite a few Latin sentences that use the imperfect verb tense rather than the perfect for no apparent reason. When I was thinking about what certain Latin sentences from the Cambridge book meant in English, they sounded weird with the imperfect (Like the example Elsa Maria shared). For the life of me I couldn't understand why they were using this tense.

Then all of a sudden, a lightbulb went off: I think Latin uses the imperfect the way Italian uses imperfetto. One of the ways Italian uses imperfetto is for descriptions and state of being in the past. This is super different from the way English uses this tense, and it's been taking me some time to get used to it. But now that I'm starting to get a grip on it, all of a sudden the reason for using imperfect in Latin makes sense!

I'm hoping no one bursts my bubble by telling me that I'm wrong.

[StringerBell]

Finally finished the edX Italian course. The last section 4.3 was about the Trapassato tense. This is a tense I've been encountering for ages and never really understood what it was. I'm glad I finally do; it seems straightforward and uncomplicated.

One of the annoying things I still need to improve is using avere vs. essere in past tense conjugations. A few verbs I know well, but I still make way too many mistakes; this seems to be one of the many things that I don't pick up even after endless hours of exposure. One problem is that I can not comprehend the difference between transitive and intransitive verbs. I don't know why. Since this is what determines whether a verb uses essere or avere in the past tense, understanding this concept would be quite useful... I think. Since I don't seem to be able to grasp it, I'm going to have to just settle for memorization. Yuck.

I should make a list of the annoying things I need to practice because when I have time and motivation to work on something, I can never remember what it is I'm supposed to be fixing.

To work on:
-avere vs. essere in passato prossimo past tense
-particles after verbs (ex: iniziare a + infinitive)
-conjugations in general... I'm still too inconsistent.
-practice sentences with imperfetto and trapassato tense
-review + practice avrei dovuto (I should have) / avrei potuto (I could have)...I used to know these but I've forgotten how to use them.

There's probably a ton more that I'm not thinking of, so I'll add to this list as things come to me. I'm going to write these on an index card and tape it somewhere so I have a reminder the next time I think "what can I work on? nothing? Ok, watch another episode of something."

So now I just have the Lucifer transcription to work on...I'm procrastinating a little because it's slow-going and strenuous. I think I might make a deal with myself that if I don't want to transcribe then my only other option is to resume the Practice Makes Perfect course book. I'm not sure which of those two is worse.

Yesterday, my husband was having a video call with his parents (in Italian, obviously) while I was in the room but doing other stuff and not really paying attention. They asked me a question (I don't even remember what it was) and I suddenly remembered a sentence I'd been practicing from my Anki deck that morning, so I popped out: "Se dovessi azzardare un'ipotesi, direi di no" (If I had to venture a guess, I'd say no) I had added that to my deck because it had both a new vocab word azzardare = to venture/hazzard and congiuntivo (subjunctive) so it was a pretty good bang for the buck. I was pretty proud of pulling that one out... I guess those 2 hours of Anki reviews weren't a total waste!

During my last Italian LE, we did the talking nonstop for ~3-4 minutes. The feedback was that I had used imperfetto correctly every time and I had conjugated everything (except for 1 verb) correctly. There were a few places where I got stuck and needed some help saying what I was trying to say, but overall I didn't do too terribly. Ideally, I'd like to do this everyday on my own and record myself but I never think of it (I'll add that to the list).

[StringerBell]

Finished transcribing episode 5 of Lucifer!

It took me 10 days to finish episode 4, and 9 days to finish episode 5, so maybe my goal of completing one per week isn't doable, but it's still not too bad. I'm 1/2 way done with this challenge. I historically poop out when I get halfway through something, so I have to guard against letting that happen to me now!

During my Italian LE today, I got a few minutes to talk about "technology". I really wish I had recorded myself doing this, because the stuff coming out of my mouth was impressive. I kept thinking, "where is this stuff coming from?" it's either due to (1) my more recent intensive work with vocabulary/expression mining, or (2) my new attitude that I will never speak Italian well.

(1) I have been doing something that is probably like combining Clozemaster with Anki; whenever I come across a new word or expression (or even one I understand but not well enough to use myself) I pop it into Reverso Context, get a bunch of example sentences using the term, and take the 4 or 5 most useful ones to paste onto an Anki card. I try to get sentences with different verb tenses, some with subjective, etc... Most of the words I've taken from a TV show I can remember the scene where the word was used, so I have a visual to go along with it.

(2) Lately I've been feeling super positive about Italian. I think purging my negative feelings about how I felt about my abilities was really useful. And everyone's feedback was immensely helpful, also. I decided to switch my mindset into one of "I definitely can't do this well, and probably never will, but who cares? Let's just see what I can do." That seems to have made a big difference for me - I no longer feel disappointment about my skills. I'm sure this way of thinking would backfire for a lot of other people, but it's just what I need - no pressure! If I can already accept that I suck, then when I pull out some complicated sentences, it's impressive instead of expected.

[StringerBell]

50% done with transcribing episode 6 of Lucifer. I should have gotten a good chunk of this done over the weekend, but instead... I didn't. I've been feeling tired and not super motivated to do transcription, so it's been hard to get started. But once I do get into a flow, it's not that bad. I'm really hoping to knock this episode off by this weekend so at least it doesn't drag longer than 2 weeks.

I'm trying to get myself into the habit of doing some Anki review as soon as I wake up, before I have to start work. Without having some kind of routine for Anki, I almost never think of reviewing cards, and all of a sudden a week has gone by with zero reviews.

During my Italian LE yesterday, I decided to upgrade how we were doing our "monologues". Now, one person speaks off the cuff on a given topic for a few minutes, the other one takes some notes and gives feedback, and then the speaker discusses the same topic again. This has been really interesting, because it allows us to incorporate the error correction/feedback immediately. The second time around we both speak more quickly and more confidently.

We come up with topics spontaneously, some examples:
-the train
-technology
-beer
-oral hygiene
-pizza

Usually the topic triggers some kind of anecdote or discussion of a past experience loosely related to the topic. When I was discussing oral hygiene yesterday, I was describing how I used to never floss and what happened to change that. I got a lot of feedback about when I did or didn't use imperfetto/passato prossimo correctly and how to say things like "root canal"; I took note of the feedback on an index card, and then when I discussed the topic again the second time, I could glance at the card if needed. The second time around, I got all the verb tenses correct.

[rdearman]

I'm trying to get myself into the habit of doing some Anki review as soon as I wake up, before I have to start work. Without having some kind of routine for Anki, I almost never think of reviewing cards, and all of a sudden a week has gone by with zero reviews.

I found it was easier to tie the habit to something else. Because I'm a dog owner I need to take my dog for a walk. 2-3 times per day sometimes. So I used to take my phone and do anki drills while out with the dog. The rest of the day I might do it if I felt like it, but mostly I hit the target of doing French reviews every single day for about 18 months with just the dog walking trick.

Unfortunately I'm working away at the moment and don't have this built in alarm to trigger my anki work. (The dog doesn't take no for an answer)

[StringerBell]

I guess I should get a dog so that I can be consistent with my Anki reviews!

So far, doing Anki reviews first thing in the morning has been working out. I've been staying on top of them, and they've not been taking more than ~20 minutes, which feels very manageable.

I created an Anki deck for grammar from the Practice Makes Perfect book, and I decided to slowly start adding stuff to the deck as I proceed with the book. I reread the link that Morgana share recently about the dude who passed the C2 Italian exam. I've read that article a few times in the past, but I found that rereading it gave me a jolt of motivation to use Anki as a way to review some of the grammar in the PMF book. I've managed to finish Chapter 11. At this point, I only have the Congiuntivo/Subjunctive stuff from Ch 11 in the deck, but I've noticed that I've been able to assimilate it well. There aren't many cards in the deck, which helps. I think doing this might help me to move through the book slightly faster.

Looks like I will not be able to knock off episode 6 transcription of Lucifer by this weekend since I will be away from home, so I'm going to aim to get it done during next week.

After a post in Morgana's log about Tadoku, I started reading about it. It seems to me to be almost the same thing as extensive reading (aka Superchallenge) with the only difference maybe being that you are encouraged to start off with the easiest books possible. I like that idea a lot but I think it's wildly impractical; it would require spending hundreds or thousands of dollars on simple children's books, so unless a person is living abroad and/or has access to a great public library where these kinds of resources in a foreign language are free, I'm not sure how one would go about getting ahold of hundreds of very simple graded readers/early childhood books that progressively get more difficult. Maybe I'm missing some obvious fix for this?

I've been thinking a lot about the concept of extensive reading/tadoku style reading (no dictionary lookups) and I realized something pretty important: I don't do this currently in my native language because when I've done this in the past, it has been extremely ineffective for me, so how could I expect this to work for me in a foreign language?

When I read in English and I encounter a new word, I almost always take a moment to look it up. In the past, when I've not taken the time to do this and relied on context to understand the meaning, I ended up with a hazy understanding of many words that was sometimes not quite right and led to me sometimes using words incorrectly because I didn't truly understand their meaning, I just had a vague sense of how they were used in context.

As a result of getting frustrated that there seemed to be a lot of words I didn't have a solid grip on, I now always look up unknown words when reading English (which doesn't happen too often, so it's painless). Plus, if a particular word is fairly uncommon, there will not be much chance of encountering it in the wild repeatedly, which I think makes look-ups even more useful. There are a lot of English words that I know I've encountered while reading but since I never bothered to look up a definition, I have no idea what they actually mean. So now when I recognize a word but can't explain or use it myself, I look it up.

To be fair, I have learned plenty of words just using context, I'm not saying it can't or doesn't happen. But often words that I've learned this way I can't give a definition of, or when I do finally look them up at some point, I realize there was an important nuance to the definition that I'd been missing.

I believe that extensive reading is important (so I hope no one thinks that I'm saying it's pointless), and I'm planning to do it for both Italian and Polish, but I'm not expecting it to be a magic bullet for improving my vocabulary. I have a feeling that the strength of extensive reading is in reinforcing what someone already knows to some degree. I think that if unknown words are fairly infrequent then it can be useful for learning new words, but it's probably less likely that I would be able to use/remember a word learned in this way (or know it's meaning in another context or out of a specific context).

To really have a good grip on what words mean, I think some amount of intensive reading is necessary. The strategy that RDearman shared about underlining unknown words as you read and then looking up at least some of them later on is the method that makes the most sense to me. It seems like a good balance between intensive and extensive reading. This is probably what I'll end up doing when I start my Italian/Polish SC, even though I'm kind of dying to actually figure out if pure extensive reading can work. Maybe I'll do pure extensive reading for one language and not the other? That might yield some interesting results.

[rdearman]

I thought I would expand a little on a couple of exercises I have done which anecdotally seemed effective for me.

Method 1

1. Get a huge book you've read before in your native language (I like Stephen King for this because he writes using common words and uses LOTS of them. Even though I don't like horror books.)
2. Read the first page intensively.
3. Read extensively for the next 24 pages.
4. Read 1 page intensively, 24 more pages extensively.
5. Repeat until you complete the book.

Method 2

1. Read a sentence and underline words you don't know.
2. Try to GUESS the word(s) from context. Try to be logical about it and try to work it out from context and grammar clues. Is it a verb, noun, adverb, etc. It is something the character is holding, travelling to, travelling on, large, small?
3. Write your guess in the margin of the book.
4. Repeat until you get bored with the exercise.
5. 24 hours later (not before) go back and look up the words you didn't know and see how good your guess was.

The advantage of Method 1 is there will probably be some words you had to look up on the starter page you'll encounter while reading the next 24 pages. This works as a kind of built in SRS system. If you keep a bookmarker on the intensive page (or post-it note all the intensive ones) you can cheat and jump back and look them up, or review all the intensive pages before you start your next 25-page section.

The advantage of Method 2 is it helps you learn to guess from context. The better you get at it the less intensive work you need. It also helps you start to notice patterns.

You could join them together and read page 1 intensively and lookup, page 2 intensively and guess, then 23 more pages extensively.

While I'm often self-critical of my progress, the one thing I'm sure of is I'm a WAYYYYY better at reading than any other skill. Certainly in French. In fact, I often carry French paperbacks (dead tree technology) on an aeroplane or train and just read them. No lookups or dictionaries, I can just read French.