Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

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cjareck
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Wed Feb 20, 2019 4:34 pm

StringerBell wrote:Additionally, there were some words on this list that I didn't know, but I did know corresponding synonyms. For example:
I know:
a party = impreza, przyjęcie
But the word on the 1,000 Most Common Words was:
a party = strona
I have never seen strona used as a word for a party, so far I've seen it used to mean a page or a website.
There were a few other words like this on the list. I'm not sure whether I have some holes in my basic vocabulary or the words on this list are not completely trustworthy.


From my dictionary (The great English-Polish Dictionary, Warsaw 1989 - 4 volumes - 2 PL-> ENG and 2 ENG -> PL):
party:
- partia (political)
- grupa, towarzystwo
- wyprawa, wycieczka
- zebranie towarzyskie, przyjęcie (this is an old Polish - now it would be "impreza")
- oddział, komenda (military)
- brygada, drużyna (at work)
- strona (to a contract, to a suit)
- osoba (strona)
- gość, jegomość (dictionary says "colloquial" - but I would never use it like that)
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Daniel N. » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:36 pm

cjareck wrote:Thanks for the explanations Chung! I was a little confused this time. To avoid that, I suggest using Polish grammatical terms. In Polish, there are "niedokonany" and "dokonany" verbs. The first one is incomplete and the second is completed. I read this on my smartphone and I had some time before I could sit in front of a computer and write a reply. I figured out something interesting, and hopefully useful. There are some exceptions, but is seems to be a rule.
If you take "niedokonany" verb in a present tense and add a right prefix to it, you receive "dokonany" verb in the future tense:
czytam + prze => przeczytam
czytasz + prze => przeczytasz

This is the same in all Slavic languages, even the pairs are very similar. The same pair in Croatian and Serbian:

čitam + pro = pročitam
čitaš + pro = pročitaš
Etc

(edit) in South Slavic languages/dialects you, of course, get the "present" tense of perfective verbs, which doesn't refer to "true present", rather to everyday, imagined or future activities, sometimes even the past.

But unfortunately perfective verbs are not only for completion. Some are for start (fall asleep, begin to hate) or an atomic action (sneeze just once).
Last edited by Daniel N. on Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:27 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Daniel N. » Thu Feb 21, 2019 7:54 pm

StringerBell wrote: I used this 1,000 Most Common Polish Words. Most of the words I knew and could easily tell the gender, but I looked up every single noun just to confirm the gender so that I could catch any weird exceptions.

This is a very bad list. Just look how many times nie is in the list. It's maybe even a (bad) English list machine-translated to Polish.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Thu Feb 21, 2019 8:02 pm

POLISH:

I officially finished my first novel+audiobook combo today. I had A LOT of scaffolding, but I'm still impressed with my progress and I'm very much looking forward to the next one, which will be Dolores Claiborne. Part of me wants to go back and reread the first novel and take notes on new/interesting vocabulary and expressions, but I think I will resist doing that for now, since that's a good way to turn a fun activity into something annoying.

I spent a really long time (more than 1 hour) recording myself reading a story in Polish because I wanted to try to get the best version possible. I still made a few small mistakes that I corrected in the moment, and overall I think it's representative of my abilities, accent-wise. I wanted to post it here for feedback (or laughs) but I get the error message: Invalid File Extension. I don't know if this means I have to convert the file into another form or if I just can't directly upload an audio file from my computer. I don't want to screw around with Dropbox or Soundcloud, so if anyone knows how to upload audio directly from a computer, I would be very appreciative.

ITALIAN:

Not much to update here. I finished rewatching season 1 of Money Heist, aka La Casa De Papel in Italian (with English subs). The second time around, the subs were helpful in showing me bits and pieces I didn't catch the first time around. Now I'm cycling through the first season for the 3rd time, this time without the subs again. At this point, it's so easy to follow that it feels a little mindless, but I'm enjoying that, because it's a relaxing thing to do when I've got some free time in the evening.

On the one hand I'm enjoying the low-stress slacker approach to Italian, but on the other hand I'm feeling slightly guilty that I'm not putting in a little more effort. Part of me wants to try to transcribe an episode because by this point I should really know exactly what everyone is saying, so I'd like to see how close I can get. Another part of me thinks that this isn't really the best use of my time and energy.

I didn't do any scriptorium or recording myself speak in the last 2 days; one day I just totally forgot about it and yesterday I started getting a sore throat, but it's already feeling better today, so I'm planning to do some writing/speaking later today.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby aquarius » Thu Feb 21, 2019 10:51 pm

StringerBell wrote:I have never seen strona used as a word for a party, so far I've seen it used to mean a page or a website.

Imho, one basic meaning of 'strona' is 'side'.

Ona będzie czekać po drugiej stronie ulicy. = She will be waiting on the other side of the street.
Po drugiej stronie lustra (literally: on the second side of the mirror) = The Polish title of 'Through the Looking-Glass, and What Alice Found There'

I'd say that 'party' can be translated by 'strona' in some situations where the meaning has something to do with 'side'. For example, the 'parties' in a lawsuit could be considered as being on opposites 'sides'.

Strona nie może wnosić o zmianę składu Trybunału Sprawiedliwości lub jednej z jego izb, podając za powód bądź obywatelstwo sędziego, bądź brak w składzie Trybunału lub izby sędziego mającego to samo obywatelstwo co ta strona.

A party may not apply for a change in the composition of the Court of Justice or of one of its chambers on the grounds of either the nationality of a Judge or the absence from the Court or from the chamber of a Judge of the nationality of that party.

https://www.linguee.com/english-polish/ ... ery=strona

@cjareck: Please correct my if I have made concerning Polish, since it's not my native language.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Fri Feb 22, 2019 2:32 am

aquarius wrote:Imho, one basic meaning of 'strona' is 'side'.

Ona będzie czekać po drugiej stronie ulicy. = She will be waiting on the other side of the street.


Yes, I've seen it used this way a lot.

I assumed that since the word was on a list of the 1,000 most common words, it was referring to a party as in a festive event, because that surely must come up more frequently than when discussing legal contracts, right?
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Fri Feb 22, 2019 6:11 am

aquarius wrote:@cjareck: Please correct my if I have made concerning Polish, since it's not my native language.

There is nothing to correct ;)
Since there are a lot of books around me, I only have to add that the second (or even first?) basic meaning of strona is page ;)

StringerBell I think you're right.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Daniel N. » Fri Feb 22, 2019 8:51 am

StringerBell wrote:I assumed that since the word was on a list of the 1,000 most common words, it was referring to a party as in a festive event, because that surely must come up more frequently than when discussing legal contracts, right?

This list is completely bogus (and the web site seems to be just an ad platform). There's no way that in any language, the words like science and spell will be more common than car, red, cold, etc.

There are lists generated from movie subtitles, and they are much better (however, you might get some words like arrest, accuse, which are not that frequent in everyday speech). You should know that creating such a list for any language with conjugations and declensions is far from trivial, as verbs, nouns and adjectives can appear in a number of forms.

You can find such a list for Polish here. The paper which explains how they did it is:

Mandera, Paweł & Keuleers, Emmanuel & Wodniecka, Zofia & Brysbaert, Marc. (2014). SUBTLEX-PL: Subtitle-based word frequency estimates for Polish. Behavior research methods. 47. 10.3758/s13428-014-0489-4.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sat Feb 23, 2019 1:01 am

POLISH:

I started reading and listening to Dolores Claiborne in Polish today. The story is not what I expected. I've heard good things about it, so I'm curious to see where it goes. Apparently, the whole book is one long dialogue (with no chapters). The audiobook artificially creates chapters every ~10 minutes, and sometimes it does so in a really weird place, like in the middle of a paragraph. I find this a bit jarring, but I'm sure I'll get used to it. I've borrow the English version from the library, so I read a page or two in English first, then listen and read to the same section in Polish.

Cursing help, continued:
The narrator uses the word "pieprzona". The translations I got were all over the place from a stronger curse like fucking to a milder one like friggin' or goddamn. Would you say this is on level with a curse like kurwa?

I put Polish Tutor on the back burner and started working instead on this awesome Preston Publishing Polish course book, which was recommended to me by Hedgehog.chess. In addition to the Polish Tutor course book, I've got several others in storage that I bought many years ago but never was able to use because they were terribly confusing and overwhelming (and had no audio). I'm still in the beginning, but so far this course is really good; there are mp3 files with audio, which I haven't used so far because I don't need them, but I think they would be very useful for a beginner. The exercises are very practical, there are really helpful notes in the margins; everything about this course book is just well done. I'm going to create a section for course books on my resource pages and give this one first place. I really can't say enough good things about Preston Publishing. If I ever start studying another language, I will definitely use one of their books.

ITALIAN:

I recorded myself reading an article for 1/2 hour. I started feeling really self-conscious about my accent, and thinking that maybe it wasn't as acceptable as I previously thought, I asked my husband to evaluate my reading. He is always brutally honest; he's not someone who is capable of saying that something is good when it isn't. He is the one person I can always trust to give me a totally objective evaluation, which was what I wanted.

I read each sentence then paused so that he could give me feedback. Afterward, we were talking about my accent, and he said that I'm never going to pass for a native speaker, but for a foreigner, I sound really good. He thinks that reading aloud everyday is a really useful thing, but he ultimately doesn't think I have much room for improvement. I was really not expecting that. I wanted to write this down so that I don't forget about this and start doubting my accent again. I've got plenty of legitimate things to doubt (my speaking ability and grammar), I don't need to feel bad about things that are actually not that bad.

I have a copy of Dolores Claiborne in Italian also (no passato remoto!) and I think I'm going to start reading it Italian while I'm reading it in English+Polish. I hope it's a book that's worth reading in 3 languages!
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Sat Feb 23, 2019 7:07 am

StringerBell wrote:Cursing help, continued:
The narrator uses the word "pieprzona". The translations I got were all over the place from a stronger curse like fucking to a milder one like friggin' or goddamn. Would you say this is on level with a curse like kurwa?

The verb "pieprzyć" is a milder form of "pierdolić" ("to fuck"). Both can describe many things, just by adding a prefixes:
- wypierdolić, wypieprzyć - to throw away
- spierdolić, spieprzyć - to run away, to screw up
- upierdolić, upieprzyć - to get dirty
- przepierdolić, przepieprzyć - to lose, to waste
The "pierdolona" is an adjective made from this verb, and "pieprzona" would be its milder form. I would say that "pierdolić" and the derivatives are about the level of "kurwa" while "pieprzyć" is on the level of cholera. This, however, is my subjective opinion.
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