Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

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hedgehog.chess
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby hedgehog.chess » Sat Feb 23, 2019 10:48 am

StringerBell wrote:I'm going to create a section for course books on my resource pages and give this one first place. I really can't say enough good things about Preston Publishing. If I ever start studying another language, I will definitely use one of their books.

I’m really glad you like it :) Unfortunately the ‘Speak Polish’ book is their only course which uses English as a base. Other ones were written for Polish audience. But I hope that in the near future it won’t be a big obstacle for you :)
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:33 pm

Today, I discovered this word is in common between Italian and Polish:
English: surgery/operation
Italian: chirurgia
Polish: chirurgia


It's always kind of weird to run into one of these words in common, because it's sometimes disorienting and I briefly get confused about whether I know the word from the other language, or it's strangely familiar because I've come across it somewhere else.

Polish:

I've done 9 out of 70 "chapters" in Dolores Claiborne. So far, I'm not really digging it, but I'm convinced it will get better. I'm picking up some interesting words like: wylew = stroke (as in brain aneurysm). And of course, immediately after writing on a previous entry that the word bat (nietoperz) is not very common, it popped up in the book, and I knew what it meant from that stupid list!

I have been recording myself reading Mikołaj stories aloud. I started reading out loud a sentence/paragraph and then immediately re-reading the same section, which seems to make a difference in my pronunciation and fluency, so I'm going to keep doing that for a little while. When I read a new Mikołaj story today, I noticed that it was definitely easier for me compared to when I first started reading them.

In the SpeakPolish course book I worked on the chapter that explained prices. Seeing what the rule is, now I realize why this was always so confusing to me, and I also realized that there's a pattern similar to describing someone's age:

1 złoty
ends in 2, 3, or 4 (but not 12, 13, or 14) złote
ends in 5, 6, 7, 8, 9, 0, 1 (plus 12, 13, 14) złotych

If your age ends in 2, 3, 4 (but not 12, 13, 14): use lata (years)
If it ends in the other numbers (including 12, 13, 14): use lat (years).

Examples:
Mam 22 lata.
Mam 65 lat.

Italian:

I recorded myself reading aloud yesterday for ~30 minutes. I used the same strategy of reading a sentence, then immediately rereading the same section. Repeated readings of the same thing allow me to work on getting the cadence to sound better. Italian sentences are so long, that after 2 or 3 lines I'm convinced they've got to end any minute...but they just keep going on and on! A lot of the sentences end up being the length of a paragraph, so I'm trying to get better at taking a breath when I hit the commas.
Last edited by StringerBell on Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:49 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Sun Feb 24, 2019 10:39 pm

StringerBell wrote:Today, I discovered this word is in common between Italian and Polish:
English: surgery/operation
Italian: chirurgia
Polish: chirurgia


I do not know the Italian meaning, but in Polish chirurgia is a discipline - part of medicine, not an operation "operacja".
StringerBell wrote:bat (nietoparz) is not very common, it popped up in the book, and I knew what it meant from that stupid list!

You have a typo there - it is "nietoperz"
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:05 pm

cjareck wrote:I do not know the Italian meaning, but in Polish chirurgia is a discipline - part of medicine, not an operation "operacja".


In the scene, a Vera is watching Dolores through the window as she hangs sheets up to dry. Vera has OCD, and is very particular about the way Dolores hangs the sheets on the clothesline, so she always oversees what Dolores is doing to make sure it's done in a very specific way.

This is the sentence it appeared in:

Czoło miała zmarszczone, usta ściągnietę i wyłamując sobie nerwowo palce, śledziła moje ruchy z takim napięciem, jakby na jej oczach dokonywał się skomplikowany zabieg chirurgiczny, a nie wieszanie pościeli, żeby wyschła na zimnym wietrze.

The English version:
Her forehead would be furrowed and her lips drawn down and her hands working on each other - all tensed up, she'd be, like it was some kind of complicated hospital operation instead of just hanging sheets out to dry in the winter wind.

I also looked up "surgery" and got both chirurgia and operacja. I've only ever come across operacja before today, so it surprised me. Does this mean that chirurgia is never really used in this way?

cjareck wrote: You have a typo there - it is "nietoperz"
Thanks! I fixed it.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:12 pm

StringerBell wrote:Czoło miała zmarszczone, usta ściągnietę i wyłamując sobie nerwowo palce, śledziła moje ruchy z takim napięciem, jakby na jej oczach dokonywał się skomplikowany zabieg chirurgiczny, a nie wieszanie pościeli, żeby wyschła na zimnym wietrze.

Yes, of course, but look that "chirurgiczny" is an adjective here. The noun "zabieg" in a context may be enough to indicate that it is some kind of a surgery. Even "zabieg" is a light surgery while "operacja" is a serious one. The removal of vermiform appendix would be called "zabieg" to convince the patient that it is not a serious operation.
By the way, the surgeon is "chirurg" in Polish.
StringerBell wrote:I also looked up "surgery" and got both chirurgia and operacja. I've only ever come across operacja before today, so it surprised me. Does this mean that chirurgia is never really used in this way?


Using of "chirurgia" instead of "operacja" would be understandable, but it sounds awkward to me. I don't remember hearing that in that situation. Only like the abovementioned situation - as an adjective "chirurgiczny" with the noun "zabieg".
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Kat » Sun Feb 24, 2019 11:14 pm

StringerBell wrote:Wow, I guess the whole non-English speaking world says "flipper"! I wasn't expecting that. :D


It's interesting that most of the words you identified as shared vocabulary of Polish and Italian seem to work for German as well.
Probably all these languages borrowed them from the same source?

StringerBell wrote:in English: factory
in Polish: fabryka
in Italian: la fabbrica


in German: Fabrik

StringerBell wrote:English: surgery/operation
Italian: chirurgia
Polish: chirurgia


in German: Chirurgie
(it describes the field of medicine, not a surgical procedure, as cjareck pointed out for Polish, and in German it also applies to the respective department in a hospital)
Surgeon would be Chirurg, by the way.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Mon Feb 25, 2019 12:19 am

Kat wrote:It's interesting that most of the words you identified as shared vocabulary of Polish and Italian seem to work for German as well.
Probably all these languages borrowed them from the same source?


I didn't realize many of these words also apply to German!

At some point I started keeping a list of the words I came across that are in common between Italian and Polish; I don't think I remembered to post them all on my log.

Here's what I've got so far: (I color coded them since it wouldn't accept my formatting)
English: Car Horn Italian: Il Clacson Polish: Klakson
English: Highway Italian: l’Autostrada Polish: Autostrada
English: Wallet Italian: Il Portofoglio Polish: Portfel
English: New Year’s Eve Italian: La notte di San Silvestro Polish: Noc sylwestrowa
English: Holiday/vacation Italian: Ferie Polish: Ferie
English: Jellyfish Italian: Una Medusa Polish: Meduza
English: High School Italian: Liceo Polish: Liceum
English: Pinball Italian: Flipper Polish: Fliper
English: Factory Italian: La Fabbrica Polish: Fabryka
English: room/auditorium Italian: La sala / l’aula Polish: Sala / aula
English: Piano Italian: Il Pianoforte Polish: Fortepian
English: Surgery Italian: Chirurgia Polish: Chirurgia*
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Kat » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:52 am

StringerBell wrote:English: Car Horn Italian: Il Clacson Polish: Klakson
English: Highway Italian: l’Autostrada Polish: Autostrada
English: Wallet Italian: Il Portofoglio Polish: Portfel
English: New Year’s Eve Italian: La notte di San Silvestro Polish: Noc sylwestrowa
English: Holiday/vacation Italian: Ferie Polish: Ferie
English: Jellyfish Italian: Una Medusa Polish: Meduza
English: High School Italian: Liceo Polish: Liceum
English: Pinball Italian: Flipper Polish: Fliper
English: Factory Italian: La Fabbrica Polish: Fabryka
English: room/auditorium Italian: La sala / l’aula Polish: Sala / aula
English: Piano Italian: Il Pianoforte Polish: Fortepian
English: Surgery Italian: Chirurgia Polish: Chirurgia*


Oh, I hadn't realized that you found so many more common terms besides pinball, factory and surgery.
A few of the others apply to German as well but I'm afraid not all of them.

English: New Year’s Eve Italian: La notte di San Silvestro Polish: Noc sylwestrowa
Yes, this one works for German as well. We say Silvester or Silvesterabend (Abend = evening/eve).

English: Holiday/vacation Italian: Ferie Polish: Ferie
It's doesn't mean exactly the same but we have the word Ferien which refers to school holidays. It's also used as an informal term for the semester break in university (Semesterferien). I think in former times Ferien was used in a more general sense to describe a vacation, too. Sometimes you still see this usage but most people will think of school holidays first when the hear the word.

English: Jellyfish Italian: Una Medusa Polish: Meduza
The term Meduse exists in German but only scientists use it. In a normal conversation you would call such an animal Qualle.

English: High School Italian: Liceo Polish: Liceum
I've seen the word Lyzeum in old books. It was used to describe an upper school for girls only. However, the term is obsolete now and people who are not interested in history or literature probably wouldn't know what it means.

English: room/auditorium Italian: La sala / l’aula Polish: Sala / aula
In German we use Saal for a big room/hall. Aula is used frequently as well but it's more specific. Most of the time it refers to a big room (for festive ocasions) in a school.

So if you ever decide to branch out into German you'll get a small discount. :D
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Daniel N. » Mon Feb 25, 2019 6:20 pm

Some of these words, e.g. ferije, sala and meduza are used in Croatian and Serbian too... but of course, any Slavic language gives a big discount for another Slavic language.
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Re: Polski & Italiano Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby lavengro » Mon Feb 25, 2019 9:42 pm

StringerBell wrote: ...
Here's what I've got so far: (I color coded them since it wouldn't accept my formatting)
English: Car Horn Italian: Il Clacson Polish: Klakson
....

I believe way back, perhaps not Middle Ages back but still quite some time ago, the external, hand-operated horn formerly attached to cars (or, as they may have been known then, Iron Horses or the Devil's Conveyance), was known as a "claxon".
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