Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

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cjareck
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Fri Jun 21, 2019 9:47 am

Ser wrote:I think that's quite clear... I speculate referring to any people at all as "dogs" must be very insulting in most cultures. :)


Yes, but I wanted to make it 100% clear. It wouldn't be a good idea to annoy policemen like that ;)

By the way, calling someone "ty psie" is rather old and may be spotted in old novels rather than heard on the streets. We use "sukinsyn" instead, which is identical to the "son of the bitch" since "suka" is female dog. That is also used and can be heard quite often.
One of my favourite scenes from the epic "Battle of Britain has the word "sukinsyn" (during dogfight about 1:20)

The scene itself was inspired by the real event - the first kill of the 303rd Squadron was made during a training flight. A pilot has abandoned a formation without permission and made a kill - > https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/No._303_S ... AF#History
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby Charlar_mas » Fri Jun 21, 2019 10:23 am

Ser wrote:
It's English that's weird for being able to do that positively in the expression "top dog", as in "those guys are the top dogs of robotics" (that is, they're the best).


To say nothing of the fact that calling something "the dog's b*******" means it's brilliant. :lol:
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby aquarius » Fri Jun 21, 2019 2:43 pm

Ser wrote:
StringerBell wrote:
StringerBell wrote:[2] Non-Masculine Personal Plurals (women, and ALL other nouns including objects and animals)
Ser wrote:I guess my explanation was not clear enough. :(

I very much appreciated your explanation, but I'm still not sure how "Personal Plurals" could include objects such as food.

Oh, I guess the punctuation is confusing you. The prefix "non-" is attaching to both "masculine" and "personal" ("non-[masculine personal] plurals"), so that term refers to everything that is not inside the "masculine and personal/human" category, which would include masculine animals, masculine objects, and anything with the feminine or neuter genders.

On Thursday, when we were on our journey back from Poland to Germany, I was thinking a bit about an answer to StringerBell's question, and on Friday morning, I saw that Ser had explained in short and precise words the same that I also had in mind. Well done!

I'd just like to give some additional information.

The Polish terminology is:

[1] męskoosobowy
męski = male, osobowy = refering to a person
rzeczownik męskoosobowy = noun refering to a maculine person
Example: (PL:) student = male student

As far as plural is concerned, the following applies: accusative case (biernik) = genetive case (dopełniacz).

Example:
Ambasada Włoch zaprasza studentów zagranicznych oraz studentów będących obywatelami włoskimi, mieszkającymi za granicą do ubiegania się o stypendia rządu włoskiego na rok akademicki 2019/2020 Stypendia rządu włoskiego 2019_2020
https://bwz.uni.lodz.pl/

As a generic masculine, these nouns can also be used to describe persons irrespective of gender, so the Polish word 'student' can also mean student irrespective of gender, as it is the case in the example above.

[2] niemęskoosobowy
rzeczownik niemęskoosobowy = noun NOT refering to a maculine person
Example: (PL:) studentka = female student

As far as plural is concerned, the following applies: accusative case (biernik) = nominative case (mianownik).

Example:
Urząd Komunikacji Elektronicznej zaprasza studentki do wzięcia udziału w konkursie „Dziewczyny w Nowych Technologiach”, którego celem jest promocja udziału kobiet w sektorze nowoczesnych technologii.
http://laboratoria.net/aktualnosci/20924.html

This invitation is explicitely aimed at women.


Feel free to give commentaries to what I have written.
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Sat Jun 22, 2019 10:15 pm

Thank you, aquarius. That was helpful.

Ser wrote:Oh, I guess the punctuation is confusing you. The prefix "non-" is attaching to both "masculine" and "personal" ("non-[masculine personal] plurals"), so that term refers to everything that is not inside the "masculine and personal/human" category, which would include masculine animals, masculine objects, and anything with the feminine or neuter genders.


Yes, I think it was the punctuation confusing me. It's clear now, thank you!

POLISH:

I've decided to completely ignore plurals at the moment, and I may just decide to pretend they don't exist forever. :roll:

I'm now 50% through my Preston book (pg 80), and moving on to other topics has been just what I needed to get out of the funk I was in about Polish.

As I'm going through the book, I keep remembering what it was like to start with grammar rules, word lists, declension tables, etc... when I initially started trying to learn Polish ~10 years ago and what a complete nightmare that was. Now that I have a good amount of CI, I'm finding that most of what's in the book makes me say, "aha! so that's what's going on!" It feels like I can absorb most of it relatively well (except for the whole pluralization nightmare). I don't know why it keeps shocking me just how much better it is to learn grammar once I already have a grip on vocabulary and sentence structure and common phrases. I know some people do really well with learning grammar first (so I don't want to debate anything), but I really just don't get how they do it.

Right now, my routine looks like this:
1) 4 pages of the Preston book, writing out the rules/points in a notebook, then doing the translation practice, checking my answers against the book, and rewriting anything that I didn't translate 100% correctly. This has been taking me ~1 hour.

2) Watch 1-2 episodes of Rodzinka.pl (they are ~20 min each) and occasionally jotting down notes, but often writing nothing. A few of the recent things I've learned from the show: nie pali się = there's no rush (there's the "się" at the end!), akurat teraz nie = not right now. "akurat" is one of those slippery words that keeps showing up with slightly different meanings and I feel like I can never get a grip on it.

3) 1 new level of Memrise with some speed reviewing (~15-20 minutes)

4) time permitting, something relating to my audiobook; either relistening to an older chapter, reading a new chapter in Eng, then listening+reading to it in Polish, or intensively rereading a chapter with a lot of note-taking OR watching/rewatching Ultraviolet w/ subs.

Once I'm done with the Preston book, I think I'll try to incorporate more writing into my routine, because that is sorely lacking and possibly taking some lessons with the tutor that PP mentioned.

ITALIAN:

I've listened to another 2 episodes of the Alle Otto della Sera podcast La Società dei Ghetti. Each episode is 20 minutes long, so it's easy to fit one in while I'm doing something mindless.

I'm currently testing out some new Italian podcasts to see if I can find anything interesting. The podcasts I'm currently test-driving: 100 Cose Belle; Fottuti Geni; Milano, Europa; Radio3 Scienza.

I finished episode 7 of Lucifer in Italian. This last episode felt exceptionally easy to understand. I wrote down a bunch of useful phrases/sentences as a reminder, like: quello che mi pare = whatever I want and mi metto sempre nei guai = I'm always getting myself into trouble. And I learned that la cauzione = bail, so: Lui ha già pagato la cauzione = he already made bail. There was a point where Lucifer said, "sono andato fuori del seminato" which I've never heard before. From context, I think it means something like "I was really out of line" but I'll have to find out about that one.

No LATIN in the past few days. Was extra busy + headache. I could have probably figured out a way to make it happen, but I'm doing this for fun, so I don't want to stress about fitting it in.
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Mon Jun 24, 2019 10:50 pm

ITALIAN:

I finally decided to start on my massive, totally overwhelming Italian project: creating a transcript for season 4 of Lucifer. I still have to figure out where to post this online so that others can make use of it, but I have some time to figure that out.

I spent an obscene amount of time transcribing ~7 minutes of the first episode today. I knew this would be challenging, but man, this is really hard. I read through what I'd written so far with my husband, who corrected all my little mistakes. I'm still on the fence about how useful this project will be for me; my hope is that it forces me to listen for tiny details that I'm currently ignoring or just not hearing at all.

I'm not planning to work on this every day, but I'd like to chip away at it consistently.

In more boring news, I finished Chapter 7 of Practice Makes Perfect and I listened to 2 more podcasts from La Società dei Ghetti. I've also been listening more to the Milano, Europa podcast from Piano P.

Now for the juicy stuff: cursing! If you have a sensitive constitution, avert your eyes.

Here is some really fun Italian cursing I learned yesterday in order of "polite" to "most vulgar":
(polite): Fare le cose alla carlona = to do things half-assed
(vulgar): Fare le cose col culo = to do things half-assed (lit: to do things with the ass)
(most vulgar): Fare le cose alla cazzo di cane = to do things half-assed (lit: to do things dog-dick style)

When my husband was explaining that last one, he said he never before thought about how weird it was and we spent a good time laughing about it.

*If something looks really messed up, such as a shirt that you take off and scrunch up, jam it in a drawer, and eventually take it out months later and it's a wrinkled mess, you could say that it "sembra uscito/uscita dal culo del cane" (it seems like it came out of the dog's ass). My husband tended to be a bit sloppy, so his mother was always yelling, "Ma, dai! Guarda qua, questa camicia sembra uscita dal culo del cane!"

AND!!! I learned about an Italian show that's fun: Love Bugs. It's from 2004, and there are some full episodes available on YT:
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby dampingwire » Mon Jun 24, 2019 11:34 pm

StringerBell wrote:There was a point where Lucifer said, "sono andato fuori del seminato" which I've never heard before. From context, I think it means something like "I was really out of line" but I'll have to find out about that one.


I suppose it depends a bit on the context but the meaning is either:
to lose your way in an argument or to drift off topic (in an essay or a talk or whatever)
or
to fail to stick to the rules in some way

So depending on the context "I was out of line" (i.e. I transgressed in some way) would work, but it could also have been "I lost the thread of the argument", "I was rambling".

"il seminato" is where you've planted the seeds, so you've lost your way or you've deviated from where you should be (or at least that's what I think it's origin is).
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Tue Jun 25, 2019 12:48 pm

StringerBell wrote:nie pali się = there's no rush (there's the "się" at the end!),

If the reflexive verb is because something is done to the doer of the action, it is logical in my opinion. If something burns it deteriorates and finally burns out. So the action of burning is done to the doer - to the fuel of the fire. And that is why we use "się" ;)

StringerBell wrote: akurat teraz nie = not right now. "akurat" is one of those slippery words that keeps showing up with slightly different meanings and I feel like I can never get a grip on it.

You are right. In this case, it strengthens the meaning and says that yesterday or tomorrow maybe (but not necessarily) but surely not now.
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby StringerBell » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:11 pm

cjareck wrote:
StringerBell wrote:nie pali się = there's no rush (there's the "się" at the end!),

If the reflexive verb is because something is done to the doer of the action, it is logical in my opinion. If something burns it deteriorates and finally burns out. So the action of burning is done to the doer - to the fuel of the fire. And that is why we use "się" ;)


I was pointing out that "się" came after the verb (at the end of the sentence/phrase) instead of before: nie pali się vs. nie się pali. This seems to be one of those instances where it's ok to end with "się", but I'm not sure why.

HELP!

Would you say that these are equally acceptable, or that one is definitely better than the other?

1) Przedwczoraj byliśmy tam.
2) Byliśmy tam przedwczoraj.

3) Cztery lata temu ona studiowała w Polsce.
4) Ona studiowała w Polsce cztery lata temu.

5) Wiem, że nie pracowaliście wczoraj.
6) Wiem, że wczoraj nie pracowaliście.
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby cjareck » Tue Jun 25, 2019 2:29 pm

StringerBell wrote:I was pointing out that "się" came after the verb (at the end of the sentence/phrase) instead of before: nie pali się vs. nie się pali. This seems to be one of those instances where it's ok to end with "się", but I'm not sure why.

Well, I would say that it is the normal place for "się":
Co robisz?
- Myję się
- Czeszę się
But
Co masz zrobić?
- Muszę jeszcze się uczesać
- Chcę się jeszcze umyć or Chcę jeszcze się umyć

So it seems that when there is only reflexive verb, "się" should by behind it. It there is something else however, "się" goes to the front.
StringerBell wrote:1) Przedwczoraj byliśmy tam.
2) Byliśmy tam przedwczoraj.

The second one is more natural. The first one only if you wish to stress that only the day before yesterday you were there. Something like saying on 12th September 2001 that on 10th of September you visited WTC.

StringerBell wrote:3) Cztery lata temu ona studiowała w Polsce.
4) Ona studiowała w Polsce cztery lata temu.

Second one is better, first one stresses the time and is less natural without any special circumstances that need to stress the time. It is less weird than the first sentence in the first example.

StringerBell wrote:5) Wiem, że nie pracowaliście wczoraj.
6) Wiem, że wczoraj nie pracowaliście.

They are more or less equal to me. The first one rather suggests that they were obliged to work but didn't do it. The second one just states a fact for me. But this is only mine interpretation not the grammar rule ;)
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Re: Polski & Italiano (+ Latin) Episode II: StringerBell Strikes Back

Postby rdearman » Tue Jun 25, 2019 7:40 pm

StringerBell wrote:I learned about an Italian show that's fun: Love Bugs. It's from 2004, and there are some full episodes available on YT:

Splendido ! :)
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