Zelda's 2019 French Log

[zjones]

Rant at the risk of not being PC (and please do correct me if I'm wrong)

AGGGGGHHHHHh cultural differences. I never thought this would be a problem for me as an American learning French, but it's starting to stand out as one of the main reasons I don't click with an LE. First I thought it was just a personal thing but the more LE's I meet the more I'm starting to think that it's cultural. It doesn't apply to all my LE's, but most of them.

I'm getting turned off by what I see as closed-mindedness and lack of curiosity that is making our conversations stall. (Again, NOT ALL are this way.) I'm a very curious person. For example: I'm not religious, I don't play soccer, and I don't know anything about politics in Sweden, but I am totally up for talking and learning about these things. With the majority of my LE's they are not fine learning or discussing anything if it's not one of their interests. They tell me: "Yeah I'm not interested in that" and the topic is off the table. I do appreciate the honesty, but I don't like the reality of the situation. I'm busting my butt to conquer my social anxiety and introversion to find LEs that I can speak with. When they're only interested in talking about what they like, it makes the conversation difficult to continue.

It's possible this is not cultural, this is just an individual thing. I simply overestimated curiosity in the general population.

However I do fit into the stereotype of the "free and open-minded American" that I keep hearing from non-Americans.

I'm considering seeking LEs from somewhere other than France. Africa, maybe? Canada? I don't know, maybe it would just be the same thing.

This is a separate thing, not cultural but age-related. I can't talk with people who have children my age, because of their patronizing "Oh but you're just a baby in life you don't know anything" and "I am going to parent you" attitude. Seriously? I'm almost 30, and you're not my parent.

[Chung]

Rant at the risk of not being PC (and please do correct me if I'm wrong)

AGGGGGHHHHHh cultural differences. I never thought this would be a problem for me as an American learning French, but it's starting to stand out as one of the main reasons I don't click with an LE. First I thought it was just a personal thing but the more LE's I meet the more I'm starting to think that it's cultural. It doesn't apply to all my LE's, but most of them.

I'm getting turned off by what I see as closed-mindedness and lack of curiosity that is making our conversations stall. (Again, NOT ALL are this way.) I'm a very curious person. For example: I'm not religious, I don't play soccer, and I don't know anything about politics in Sweden, but I am totally up for talking and learning about these things. With the majority of my LE's they are not fine learning or discussing anything if it's not one of their interests. They tell me: "Yeah I'm not interested in that" and the topic is off the table. I do appreciate the honesty, but I don't like the reality of the situation. I'm busting my butt to conquer my social anxiety and introversion to find LEs that I can speak with. When they're only interested in talking about what they like, it makes the conversation difficult to continue.

It's possible this is not cultural, this is just an individual thing. I simply overestimated curiosity in the general population.

However I do fit into the stereotype of the "free and open-minded American" that I keep hearing from non-Americans.

I'm considering seeking LEs from somewhere other than France. Africa, maybe? Canada? I don't know, maybe it would just be the same thing.

This is a separate thing, not cultural but age-related. I can't talk with people who have children my age, because of their patronizing "Oh but you're just a baby in life you don't know anything" and "I am going to parent you" attitude. Seriously? I'm almost 30, and you're not my parent.

A Francophone from Canada, Belgium, Switzerland or Luxembourg could work too. I can't see how you couldn't find any suitable exchange partner aged between 25 and 35. Do you live in a big city? Try looking for a partner in a decently sized city. Since you're married and thinking about buying a home, keep an eye for an exchange partner who's also married (or in a long-term relationship) and has given hints in his/her profile about buying a home (or moving to something more permanent). You can call it classist, ageist, discriminatory or whatever, but I think that getting the right partner is more important than appeasing some criterium in the name of PC. For conversation topics, scan the lists here for ideas. Try some "silly questions" if you like.

Now that you mention it, when I did language exchanges for a BCMS/SC, Czech, Hungarian, Polish, and Slovak, pretty much the only partners who stuck around for at least a year were people whom I could relate to because of our similarities in age and socioeconomic background. As I quickly found out, the difference in standard of living between the USA and Poland, for example, wasn't so different that I, the middle(ish)-class learner, couldn't relate to my exchange partners who were middle(ish)-class in Poland.

[Cavesa]

I don't think it is that cultural either, or that it is your fault. I'd guess it might just be bad luck.

Not all the americans are open minded either, some regions are more open minded than others, the stereotype is not that universal even about the US. This variety is similar in other countries too (in Spain, we had a serious trouble with this in our group of exchange students, as the southern spaniards and a pole were significantly more conservative than most of the foreigners or the northern spaniards). In France, within my own age/education/interest group, I found people with various levels of "openmindedness". There were groups, in which I felt very ok and others, where I was really asking myself whether it was cultural or whether I was a completely weird and a horrible person, and even answering a question in a way different from the expected standard was frowned upon, or there were differences in the sense of humour. But no, I think it is just as elsewhere. Curiously, in one group, I was much more ok with other non-French people, such as a guy from Algeria, a country significantly more culturally distant from mine than France. In other groups, there was no problem at all, it was awesome and easy to be around those people. It was about luck. I don't think I was changing much from month to month as a person or in the way I communicate (I am not that fast a learner in "people-ing").

Chung is offering an awesome chunk of advice, as usual. It is simply true that a polish middle class person and an american middle class person are likely to have much more in common than either of them with a millionaire from their own country, or with a very poor person from their own country. And there are more criteria like that. Friendship outside of one's age/class/educational background is definitely possible and worth it, but I don't think putting oneself under additional pressure just to fulfill our own idea of our own open-mindedness is necessary at all times. Starting from the more similar people in another langauge and country is already a challenge, you can branch out later.

I think you can find more or less open minded people in any category. It just takes time and efforts. That's something I am not that good at, but you seem to be much better than me. I am sure that with your attitude, you are likely to find some good people for regular practice. And you have my admiration for keeping trying!

[eido]

The only exchange partners I keep up with often nowadays are mostly from Korea, and sometimes it's a mixture of their English skills and their culture that make a buffer between us. I'll often make jokes that I know from experience might be too culturally specific (too American), and they will just ignore the message like they never got it. It makes me feel like I'm not funny at all or I've offended them. I have two regular exchange partners, one who's in his 40s and another who's a year younger than me. It makes for a very interesting interaction when your conversation partner either has to use a translator to parse a lot of what you're saying (therefore leading to myriad misunderstandings), or just is uncomfortable and won't tell you. Of course, when my LE partner speaks in full, unabridged Korean, I use a translator, too, but...

I'm trying to say I understand, haha.

However I haven't given up talking to them because they can offer interesting insights on what it's like to be Korean from time to time, and they share cool cultural links with me.

Is it the difficulties they have when you speak in English?

I've had similar experiences as you though with an Icelandic LE, though maybe some of it was my fault. I opened up too quickly as I usually do about my personal life, and he felt burdened. He never told me all he wanted to do was correct my Icelandic, not be friends. And, I guess, knowing me, I can be pretty dramatic and detailed in my drama, so I think you can tell how that went down. However, because he just wants to be all business and not forge a friendship, he often pretends to be interested by saying, "Oh wow, really?" and using other placeholder phrases. He actively encourages the conversation to fizzle out if that's its course. I guess I don't know the meaning of awkward and how to manage it

Do you set clear expectations for your LEs?

[Speakeasy]

Hello, zjones! Your experiences caused me to recall of couple of my own …

First, there is the delicate matter of being accepted by, or at least being minimally-tolerated by, a social group of which one is not a regular member in good standing (we’ve all been through this a gillion times). In my final year of high school, my parents moved (once again) dragging me with them. After duly registering at my new school, I was informed by one of the staff that the Assistant Principal had requested that I report to his office. He commenced his “welcoming address” by telling me that the local kids had all grown up together, that they had all attended his school from the 9th grade onwards, that were now in their senior year and that, along the way, they had all formed enduring friendships with one another, friendships that they maintained both within and outside of the school. And then, he dropped the bomb: “and they don’t need you!” He continued in this vein, explaining that, by virtue of their shared interests and their friendships, the other students had formed a complete social environment for themselves and that, should I feel excluded from their group or not appreciated for my proper worth, I should not take this personally; rather, either I should find a way of penetrating the group and of making myself interesting to them or I should learn to accept that, while I would not be subjected to shunning per se, I should not expect my fellow students to make the slightest effort towards including me in their activities. Hmm, “story of my life”, I thought to myself (I’m very reserved with people I do not know well). So then, to a certain extent, it is possible that your experiences with the LE might include an element of “we just so darned happy together, we don’t need zjones pushing her way in here.” This is merely one of several elements of group dynamics and as well know, at times, the exclusion can be quite deliberate.

Second, the delicate matter of cultural differences can play a very significant role. While I am many years your senior, at the time and in the environment in which I was raised, it was considered ill-mannered and quite possibly offensive to intrude “forcefully” into other people’s conversations. The rules of social etiquette (the rules change, but there are always rules) required that one gently make it known, without causing offense to anyone, that one had an opinion worth sharing. While the opinion itself could be in disagreement with something that was just said, one’s entry into a discussion and the acceptable expression of one’s diverging views were considered a matter of etiquette. Following these rules severed me fairly well until, in my early forties, I settled in Québec and, putting aside my initial struggles to learn French, I had to make numerous unexpected non-linguistic adjustments (despite what my fellow Anglo-Canadians might wish to believe, for want of direct experience, there are many subtle cultural differences which continue to distinguish the Two Solitudes). Going further, …

One of the many cultural differences which surprised me was that Francophones (in Québec and in France) appear to see no particular virtue in “hiding one’s lamp under a bushel” and do not hesitate in expressing their opinions – in what would be, from the perspective of my upbringing – an impolite and forceful manner. Furthermore, they do not seem to be interested in the sensitivities of their conversational partners. Now then, this might seem to be a damning generalization of an entire people. In defense of this “outsider’s observation”, I would add that the cultural phenomenon seems so omnipresent to me that I have asked, on several occasions, Francophones living either in Québec or in France whether or not my impression was valid. To my (initial) surprise, my colleagues at work and my friends and acquaintances unanimously confirmed my impression and added that it is “expected” that one jump forcefully into a conversation, demand the group’s attention and express oneself forcefully, cutting others off in mid-sentence. The rules of etiquette seem to express an attitude of: “if your conversation partners can’t take it, or if they can’t keep up with you, ‘*tant pis’ for them!” Now then, this does not mean that the very idea of impoliteness does not exist in Québec and France, *au contraire!

So then, my advice would be that you screw up your courage, that give them all a few elbow-jabs, that express yourself forcefully, that take no quarter, and that make yourself heard. You’ll feel better for it and the LE will genuinely respect you for it. If not, “*tant pis” for them!

*tant pis = too bad
*au contraire = on the contrary

[Cèid Donn]

I hate to add to this pile-on, but a little practical advice, from one "free and open-minded American" woman to another:

Trust yourself. Your feelings are valid and your time and energy are valuable. If someone speaks to you in a way that you feel is disrespectful or patronizing, you don't owe it to them to do mental backflips to excuse them. Dealing with other people's bad behavior consumes your time and energy--time and energy that you should be allowed to use for learning instead. Don't be afraid to draw boundaries here. They volunteered to do LE, and if they can't make an effort to respect you, your interests and your cultural background, they shouldn't be doing LEs.

It's one thing to be outspoken and blunt with one's opinions. It's another thing to use that as an excuse to be insulting or dismissive. I say this as a very frank francoamerican myself. I have zero patience for the "that's just how francophones are" nonsense. It's used way too often to excuse things that don't deserve to be excused. It will take some time to learn when it's just cultural and when it's bull****, but until you get the hang of it, just trust yourself.

I don't have any simple solution to finding a LE who's a good fit for you, except maybe to try being clearer upfront of what you expect from your LEs. Be open with your expectations for what you want from the LE, as well as what you how to offer them. Again, it's your time and energy.

[zjones]

Thank you. I appreciate all the kind and explanatory responses about a topic which is clearly subjective and potentially offensive. I've been avoiding discussing this topic for the last month but it was simmering in my mind all the time, and I got to the point where I knew I had to ask for advice and objective opinions. I agree with all of you, and although I do think that cultural differences have some part to play, Cavesa is also correct that people are just this way in general. And I've never been totally at ease with other people, whether that's due to my personality, anxiety or my upbringing. And as a white American completely surrounded by white people in a city with very little diversity, with only occasional contact with second-generation non-white Americans, I've never experienced different cultures. So thank you for being understanding.

A Francophone from Canada, Belgium, Switzerland or Luxembourg could work too. I can't see how you couldn't find any suitable exchange partner aged between 25 and 35. Do you live in a big city? Try looking for a partner in a decently sized city. Since you're married and thinking about buying a home, keep an eye for an exchange partner who's also married (or in a long-term relationship) and has given hints in his/her profile about buying a home (or moving to something more permanent). You can call it classist, ageist, discriminatory or whatever, but I think that getting the right partner is more important than appeasing some criterium in the name of PC. For conversation topics, scan the lists here for ideas. Try some "silly questions" if you like.

Thanks for the tips Chung. You are spot on that my favorite LEs are people around my age, stable (whether in a relationship or not), middle-class, polite, and interested in psychology (for some reason this is one major point in my best LEs). I'm going to be more discerning about who I start to converse with.

I don't think it is that cultural either, or that it is your fault. I'd guess it might just be bad luck.

Not all the americans are open minded either, some regions are more open minded than others, the stereotype is not that universal even about the US. ... In France, within my own age/education/interest group, I found people with various levels of "openmindedness". There were groups, in which I felt very ok and others, where I was really asking myself whether it was cultural or whether I was a completely weird and a horrible person, and even answering a question in a way different from the expected standard was frowned upon, or there were differences in the sense of humour. But no, I think it is just as elsewhere. Curiously, in one group, I was much more ok with other non-French people, such as a guy from Algeria, a country significantly more culturally distant from mine than France. In other groups, there was no problem at all, it was awesome and easy to be around those people. It was about luck. I don't think I was changing much from month to month as a person or in the way I communicate (I am not that fast a learner in "people-ing").

Ah people-ing. Like you I struggle with social adaptation and learning, so I understand. I think you're right, at least partly, that this is just the way people are... so maybe, in putting myself out there, I've just had bad luck stumbling across closed-off people. To be honest, I expect better from language exchanges than I do from people I meet in daily life... I mean, this person is advertising themselves to converse with someone from a different culture right? Don't they want to learn things? But I give them too much credit just for making a profile on Conversation Exchange, I guess.

It's interesting that you mention Algeria. I've had much better relationships with French people of first- or second-generation Northern African origins, but again this could just be luck.

I'm trying to say I understand, haha.

However I haven't given up talking to them because they can offer interesting insights on what it's like to be Korean from time to time, and they share cool cultural links with me.

Is it the difficulties they have when you speak in English?

Do you set clear expectations for your LEs?

Thanks Eido. I'm very accommodating, and I used to be even more so. I still need to work on my boundaries, because I have a bad habit of letting people walk all over me, whether it's by totally dominating the conversation, expecting me to be "on call" for conversations all day, or cancelling our exchanges five times in a row. It's exhausting and I know that part of it is because I don't stand up for myself. I think I need to move from talking about expectations at the first conversation, to voicing them BEFORE any real conversation. Then I can type them instead of speaking on-the-fly.

First, there is the delicate matter of being accepted by, or at least being minimally-tolerated by, a social group of which one is not a regular member in good standing (we’ve all been through this a gillion times).... I should not take this personally; rather, either I should find a way of penetrating the group and of making myself interesting to them or I should learn to accept that, while I would not be subjected to shunning per se, I should not expect my fellow students to make the slightest effort towards including me in their activities. Hmm, “story of my life”, I thought to myself (I’m very reserved with people I do not know well). So then, to a certain extent, it is possible that your experiences with the LE might include an element of “we just so darned happy together, we don’t need zjones pushing her way in here.” This is merely one of several elements of group dynamics and as well know, at times, the exclusion can be quite deliberate.

One of the many cultural differences which surprised me was that Francophones (in Québec and in France) appear to see no particular virtue in “hiding one’s lamp under a bushel” and do not hesitate in expressing their opinions – in what would be, from the perspective of my upbringing – an impolite and forceful manner. Furthermore, they do not seem to be interested in the sensitivities of their conversational partners. Now then, this might seem to be a damning generalization of an entire people. In defense of this “outsider’s observation”, I would add that the cultural phenomenon seems so omnipresent to me that I have asked, on several occasions, Francophones living either in Québec or in France whether or not my impression was valid. To my (initial) surprise, my colleagues at work and my friends and acquaintances unanimously confirmed my impression and added that it is “expected” that one jump forcefully into a conversation, demand the group’s attention and express oneself forcefully, cutting others off in mid-sentence. The rules of etiquette seem to express an attitude of: “if your conversation partners can’t take it, or if they can’t keep up with you, ‘*tant pis’ for them!” Now then, this does not mean that the very idea of impoliteness does not exist in Québec and France, *au contraire!

Thanks for the story and for the note on cultural differences, Speakeasy. The cultural bluntness that you describe is extremely relevant for me, I see it all the time during my language exchanges and it can catch me off guard. Sometimes it's not a big deal because it's as simple as "No, I don't like films at all, I hate them." At other times I really feel like some softness, some politeness, could be brought to the response without being dishonest. I too have discussed this with with some of my closer French friends, and they have validated my impressions as well.

Edit: [example removed because it wasn't a very good example, sorry!]

....Anyway, I do know what you're referring to, and I've experienced more bluntness from French people in the last year than I have from American people in my entire adult life (unless you count when I'm talking to my nieces ).

[Speakeasy]

@zjones, I find it disheartening that a self-declared “Breton” should haughtily distort the history of his own language. Were he to ask his grand-parents about their experiences with this “French” language, they would probably confirm that, as pupils, they were subjected to corporal punishment in retaliation for speaking Breton in the classroom. While it might be tempting to inform your language partner that Assimil offers a course entitled “Le Breton” -- from a French base -- doing so would likely yield an immediate “rupture de communications” and the cessation of all further collaboration.

[zjones]

@zjones, I find it disheartening that a self-declared “Breton” should haughtily distort the history of his own language. Were he to ask his grand-parents about their experiences with this “French” language, they would probably confirm that, as pupils, they were subjected to corporal punishment in retaliation for speaking Breton in the classroom. While it might be tempting to inform your language partner that Assimil offers a course entitled “Le Breton” -- from a French base -- doing so would likely yield an immediate “rupture de communications” and the cessation of all further collaboration.

Thanks Speakeasy. I deleted the example but I appreciate your response. After the exchange I did send him a link to http://www.fr.brezhoneg.bzh/3-la-langue-bretonne.htm, with a text saying that I wanted to clear up any confusion about my question and that I was not stating that Brittany is not part of France. IF that does cause the cessation of collaboration, as you say, then tant pis. I don't really want to have a language exchange with someone who refuses to acknowledge that Breton is a real language and that my question was solely one of curiosity and not malice.

[zjones]

I hate to add to this pile-on, but a little practical advice, from one "free and open-minded American" woman to another:

Trust yourself. Your feelings are valid and your time and energy are valuable. If someone speaks to you in a way that you feel is disrespectful or patronizing, you don't owe it to them to do mental backflips to excuse them. Dealing with other people's bad behavior consumes your time and energy--time and energy that you should be allowed to use for learning instead. Don't be afraid to draw boundaries here. They volunteered to do LE, and if they can't make an effort to respect you, your interests and your cultural background, they shouldn't be doing LEs.

It's one thing to be outspoken and blunt with one's opinions. It's another thing to use that as an excuse to be insulting or dismissive. I say this as a very frank francoamerican myself. I have zero patience for the "that's just how francophones are" nonsense. It's used way too often to excuse things that don't deserve to be excused. It will take some time to learn when it's just cultural and when it's bull****, but until you get the hang of it, just trust yourself.

I don't have any simple solution to finding a LE who's a good fit for you, except maybe to try being clearer upfront of what you expect from your LEs. Be open with your expectations for what you want from the LE, as well as what you how to offer them. Again, it's your time and energy.

Thank you so much. You are right. I'm having uncomfortable language exchanges but I'm not giving myself permission to just move on. Instead, I'm caught up in my ruminations and I'm stressing out about it day and night. Even if it is a cultural difference, I am not tied to any of my language partners and they aren't a perfect fit for me, I can say goodbye and look for someone else. Thank you so much, Cèid.