Zelda's 2019 French Log

[StringerBell]

For example: I'm not religious, I don't play soccer, and I don't know anything about politics in Sweden, but I am totally up for talking and learning about these things.

It's a shame we don't speak each other's target languages, because you sound like my ideal LEP! I also love talking to people who have interests that are totally different from mine because it gives me a chance to learn something new and ask lots of questions. I'm also an introvert, but I hide it really well because when I meet someone new I just ask them a ton of questions to get them talking and it gives the impression that I'm a great conversationalist (in my experience, most people really love talking about themselves).

I also had an issue with finding an Italian LEP...though my issue was different. Unfortunately, the majority of the female Italians - both in person and online - that I've met have been extremely superficial and self-entitled (I love horror movies/TV, so I used a picture of a zombie as my profile pic, and one potential LEP requested that I change my pic because she didn't like to look at it when sending me a message). I could never in a million years imagine myself asking a stranger to change their profile pic because I don't like looking at it. I generally click better with guys anyways, but finding an Italian guy who wasn't interested in "something more" took some patience. That said, I know that not every Italian woman is self-entitled, superficial, and obsessed about money, and not every Italian guy is just interested in flirting. But there's no denying that there are real cultural differences between every country that can make it extra challenging to find the right LEP. But when you finally do find them, it's really awesome!

[garyb]

Very interesting discussion! Most of the language exchange partners I've found online (and especially Italian women in their 20s and 30s, strangely enough!) have been interesting, cultured, creative and intellectual types whom I get on well with and have plenty to talk about with. My main difficulty, especially with French, has just been finding them in the first place. In fact, my LE experiences actually gave me an unrealistic idea of those countries' cultures, making me think that Italians were all lovers of art, literature, cinema, history, and science while we Anglophones were mostly a bunch of superficial boors in comparison!

Of course, after meeting more Italians in real life both in my country and in Italy, and also more people from my own background who share my interests, it became clear enough that you'll find all types of people everywhere. I also used to have tendencies to romanticise foreign cultures and think the grass is always greener on the other side, so there was probably some confirmation bias there. I think that the type of people who learn a foreign language by choice and pursue exchanges aren't representative of the population in general, and are likely to be more worldly and less superficial. I have encountered my share of closed-minded, superficial and self-entitled Italians - probably adding more unfair over-generalisations here but those from around Milan have been the most superficial and entitled, and those from the South can have a false friendliness that I dislike and sometimes masks an underlying xenophobia - but mostly through social life and travel rather than exchanges. Many French and Belgian people I've met also, let's say, prefer their own kind.

I see that your (zjones and StringerBell) experiences are the opposite though, so I'm not sure what to advise! I can only agree with the advice about moving on if an exchange doesn't fit you. I'm also the ruminating type and I admit I've got upset and lost sleep over exchanges gone badly in the past, so it's easier said than done, but I've just had to realise that it means they weren't right for me and I don't want to be involved with people who waste my time or judge me negatively. Also try to avoid getting into the mindset of "I need to speak more to improve"; conversation is helpful but not essential and not worth undue stress. I've lost far too much time and sanity from this!

Regarding cultural differences, I quite like the bluntness of many French and Italian speakers, and have even learnt from it, but as a more reserved and fence-sitting type from the UK it can feel a bit cutting at times. Another thing I've noticed in those cultures is what to us seems like less respect for others' time and commitments: turning up late and cancelling appointments is very acceptable, and it's quite normal for people to say things like "we should go for a drink sometime" or "we'll have a chat soon" with no intention of following through. It almost just seems a way of saying hypothetically "I appreciate your company and I'd enjoy the drink/chat" rather than a real commitment, and could be a reflection of the more laid-back attitude to life in general. Again that's all a bit stereotypical, but these stereotypes exist for a reason.

[zjones]

For example: I'm not religious, I don't play soccer, and I don't know anything about politics in Sweden, but I am totally up for talking and learning about these things.

It's a shame we don't speak each other's target languages, because you sound like my ideal LEP! I also love talking to people who have interests that are totally different from mine because it gives me a chance to learn something new and ask lots of questions. I'm also an introvert, but I hide it really well because when I meet someone new I just ask them a ton of questions to get them talking and it gives the impression that I'm a great conversationalist (in my experience, most people really love talking about themselves).

I also had an issue with finding an Italian LEP...though my issue was different. Unfortunately, the majority of the female Italians - both in person and online - that I've met have been extremely superficial and self-entitled (I love horror movies/TV, so I used a picture of a zombie as my profile pic, and one potential LEP requested that I change my pic because she didn't like to look at it when sending me a message). I could never in a million years imagine myself asking a stranger to change their profile pic because I don't like looking at it. I generally click better with guys anyways, but finding an Italian guy who wasn't interested in "something more" took some patience. That said, I know that not every Italian woman is self-entitled, superficial, and obsessed about money, and not every Italian guy is just interested in flirting. But there's no denying that there are real cultural differences between every country that can make it extra challenging to find the right LEP. But when you finally do find them, it's really awesome!

I agree, we'd make awesome LE partners! It definitely sounds like you've struggled finding Italian LEPs and I'm happy that you have been able to find some that are a great fit for you. I click better with guys too, but because I already have a couple good male LEs, I've been specifically seeking out women. I'm not sure if it's this way for you, but out of every five women I message on Conversation Exchange, I might get one reply... if I am lucky. If I message a guy, there's a good chance he'll be in contact within the same day and be ready to exchange ASAP.

Very interesting discussion! Most of the language exchange partners I've found online (and especially Italian women in their 20s and 30s, strangely enough!) have been interesting, cultured, creative and intellectual types whom I get on well with and have plenty to talk about with. My main difficulty, especially with French, has just been finding them in the first place...

Of course, after meeting more Italians in real life both in my country and in Italy, and also more people from my own background who share my interests, it became clear enough that you'll find all types of people everywhere. I also used to have tendencies to romanticise foreign cultures and think the grass is always greener on the other side, so there was probably some confirmation bias there. I think that the type of people who learn a foreign language by choice and pursue exchanges aren't representative of the population in general, and are likely to be more worldly and less superficial. I have encountered my share of closed-minded, superficial and self-entitled Italians - probably adding more unfair over-generalisations here but those from around Milan have been the most superficial and entitled, and those from the South can have a false friendliness that I dislike and sometimes masks an underlying xenophobia - but mostly through social life and travel rather than exchanges. Many French and Belgian people I've met also, let's say, prefer their own kind.

I see that your (zjones and StringerBell) experiences are the opposite though, so I'm not sure what to advise! I can only agree with the advice about moving on if an exchange doesn't fit you. I'm also the ruminating type and I admit I've got upset and lost sleep over exchanges gone badly in the past, so it's easier said than done, but I've just had to realise that it means they weren't right for me and I don't want to be involved with people who waste my time or judge me negatively. Also try to avoid getting into the mindset of "I need to speak more to improve"; conversation is helpful but not essential and not worth undue stress. I've lost far too much time and sanity from this!

Great observations throughout your message, thank you! I think I used romanticize other cultures too, especially European ones. It wasn't until I started speaking with French people that I realized "Oh, I kind of don't like X about their culture..." and "My culture has X and X that I really enjoy." I have a lot more objectivity when I'm looking at other cultures, andI'm still not anywhere near correct, I'm sure, but I've stopped disparaging my own culture and romanticizing everyone else's.

So regarding the last part of your post, I am in the mindset of "I need to speak more to improve". I want to speak French without too many errors, and I'm in the situation where my speaking skills are lagging pretty far behind my reading, writing and listening skills. I've been putting myself through introvert h*ll and it's starting to affect my daily happiness, especially if I have a bad exchange at 9am. But I've been told that the only way to speak better is to speak to other people a lot. Are you saying that I shouldn't worry too much about conversation, or that there are other ways to improve it? Do you have any suggestions?

As far as my language exchanges, I'm waving goodbye to people who constantly leave me feeling drained and anxious. I still have a handful of WONDERFUL French exchange partners, the rare kinds of people who I can call my friends.

[StringerBell]

I'm not sure if it's this way for you, but out of every five women I message on Conversation Exchange, I might get one reply... if I am lucky. If I message a guy, there's a good chance he'll be in contact within the same day and be ready to exchange ASAP.

Yup!

I want to speak French without too many errors, and I'm in the situation where my speaking skills are lagging pretty far behind my reading, writing and listening skills. I've been putting myself through introvert h*ll and it's starting to affect my daily happiness, especially if I have a bad exchange at 9am. But I've been told that the only way to speak better is to speak to other people a lot.

Something to keep in mind is that our emotional state can greatly affect our ability to make improvements and speak a language well. If you come to dread speaking French because of your negative interactions/frustrations, there's a good chance speaking more may become counterproductive.

It sounds like you are already doing a lot of really great things to improve your speaking - like recording yourself speaking, speaking to yourself, writing a lot. I think you will continue to get slowly better over time and there's no need to stress about speaking 7+ hours vs. 2-3 hours per week with a LEP...

One thing I often see recommended (and which I don't do but should) is to try to try to switch your internal dialogue into your target language. I constantly have thoughts running through my head in English...I bet if I were more consistent with trying to think about those same things in Italian or Polish I would make improvements (and it would quickly point out where my gaps are). Do you already do this?

[zjones]

Something to keep in mind is that our emotional state can greatly affect our ability to make improvements and speak a language well. If you come to dread speaking French because of your negative interactions/frustrations, there's a good chance speaking more may become counterproductive.

It sounds like you are already doing a lot of really great things to improve your speaking - like recording yourself speaking, speaking to yourself, writing a lot. I think you will continue to get slowly better over time and there's no need to stress about speaking 7+ hours vs. 2-3 hours per week with a LEP...

One thing I often see recommended (and which I don't do but should) is to try to try to switch your internal dialogue into your target language. I constantly have thoughts running through my head in English...I bet if I were more consistent with trying to think about those same things in Italian or Polish I would make improvements (and it would quickly point out where my gaps are). Do you already do this?

Thank you, I think you're right about the danger of dreading speaking French. If I start listening to my recordings and do some investigation into my problem areas (word genders, long confusing sentences, inability to find the right word, etc) I think the recordings could be very helpful for me... perhaps even more so than being corrected by a language exchange partner, because I'd be doing the work myself.

I can successfully think in French, but only if I am cutting out all English which includes speaking in English with my partner. If I'm not making an effort to stop using English, it's very easy for me to think completely in English all the time because it's so natural. Perhaps I could turn it into an exercise where I set a timer for an hour and maintain a French internal dialogue during that time.

[garyb]

Great observations throughout your message, thank you! I think I used romanticize other cultures too, especially European ones. It wasn't until I started speaking with French people that I realized "Oh, I kind of don't like X about their culture..." and "My culture has X and X that I really enjoy." I have a lot more objectivity when I'm looking at other cultures, andI'm still not anywhere near correct, I'm sure, but I've stopped disparaging my own culture and romanticizing everyone else's.

So regarding the last part of your post, I am in the mindset of "I need to speak more to improve". I want to speak French without too many errors, and I'm in the situation where my speaking skills are lagging pretty far behind my reading, writing and listening skills. I've been putting myself through introvert h*ll and it's starting to affect my daily happiness, especially if I have a bad exchange at 9am. But I've been told that the only way to speak better is to speak to other people a lot. Are you saying that I shouldn't worry too much about conversation, or that there are other ways to improve it? Do you have any suggestions?

As far as my language exchanges, I'm waving goodbye to people who constantly leave me feeling drained and anxious. I still have a handful of WONDERFUL French exchange partners, the rare kinds of people who I can call my friends.

I suppose it's the appeal of the "exotic" and it seems fashionable to romanticise other cultures and disparaging one's own, at least in the UK and USA, so I suppose I can't blame anyone for falling into the trap. Fortunately we both seem to have grown out of it after some real-life experience, and accepting that it's hard to know fully is just part of that maturity.

Regarding speaking, I can only agree with StringerBell's last replies and also say that it's a question of balance, although I know that's a bit of a cop-out for not having a more specific answer. Some people can reach a high level with just lots of input and little speaking practice, but for me that's never worked and there's no substitute for the real thing. At the same time though I no longer feel any need to converse every day or even every week. Conversation skill is really a combination of lots of different skills (listening, pronunciation, grammar, putting thoughts into words, and plenty more...), many of which can be isolated and practised on their own, although putting them all together is also a skill in itself that takes practice.

My experience is that speaking will always significantly lag behind the other skills no matter how much you work on it, and I'd say that that's true even for a native language: there's plenty English I can understand in books or spoken media that I wouldn't be able to produce off the top of my head.

If you have a "handful" of partners, it sounds like you're doing very well already. Don't be fooled into wanting to keep up with people who're doing hours of language exchanges per day; in my opinion a lot of that is wasting time and spinning their wheels.

[Cavesa]

I think I used romanticize other cultures too, especially European ones. It wasn't until I started speaking with French people that I realized "Oh, I kind of don't like X about their culture..." and "My culture has X and X that I really enjoy." I have a lot more objectivity when I'm looking at other cultures, andI'm still not anywhere near correct, I'm sure, but I've stopped disparaging my own culture and romanticizing everyone else's.

Yes, the cultural shock can happen even in your own home, if your initial romantisation is too far from the harsh reality. I've found plenty of things I dislike about the french culture, it is normal. And most of them before going to Erasmus. So, very little cultural shock there, I was ready, and I think the realistic expectations were healthy. Seeing those things hasn't diminished the importance of the stuff I love about the french culture at all, quite the opposite. I think it is like the difference between having a crush on someone inacessible (like a movie star) and loving a person. I don't get the second part though. I hate the czech "culture" so much that it's one of the reasons why I don't want to be a doctor here. People thought I'd start loving it during my Erasmus, but nope. So, I don't think it is so universal, to romaniticise others and not see one's own qualities. Actually, I've also met lots of people who were not romanticising other cultures at all, which lead to not having much interest in them at all. Perhaps that is a problem too

But the individual differences are huge and I also think the other direction comes in play. It's not just about your expectations. Your LEs were talking to their English LE, and I think this problem is not only yours, reading some of the experiences in this thread. English is always an exception. I guess you may have encountered people, who were not romanticising your culture at all. They may not have been too curious about stuff outside of their already known world and interests. You could have met mostly people, who were learning just because of obligation and to get more money and better jobs. Learning about your interests that can't be monetised may simply not have been part of the plan. And that says nothing about you and your interests!

It is absolutely normal for non anglophones to invest a lot in learning English. Time, and money, and efforts. But genuine fascination cannot be faked. I have never thought about this before, truth be told. As a Czech native, I cannot find anyone for LE, because nobody with the native languages I need cares about it. But an English native may struggle to find someone, who would actually have the qualities we associate with language learning in this community, above all the curiosity and desire to leave our comfort zone.

Also, the anglophone cultures are everywhere in the media, in the tv series, in the newspapers. There is very little left to be romanticised.

I guess that your problem with finding suitable LEs could immediately go away with a bit of luck or with lots of searching.

So regarding the last part of your post, I am in the mindset of "I need to speak more to improve". I want to speak French without too many errors, and I'm in the situation where my speaking skills are lagging pretty far behind my reading, writing and listening skills. I've been putting myself through introvert h*ll and it's starting to affect my daily happiness, especially if I have a bad exchange at 9am. But I've been told that the only way to speak better is to speak to other people a lot. Are you saying that I shouldn't worry too much about conversation, or that there are other ways to improve it? Do you have any suggestions?

As far as my language exchanges, I'm waving goodbye to people who constantly leave me feeling drained and anxious. I still have a handful of WONDERFUL French exchange partners, the rare kinds of people who I can call my friends.

No, it is not the only way! And if it is affecting you in such a manner, it is most probably not worth it. Really, I didn't have to speak to other people at various phases of learning. It is not necessary. It can be postponed till better opportunities arise.

You've found a few friends through LE, that is awesome! Stick to them, don't force yourself to something very unpleasant.

Really, the myth that "you can only improve speaking by speaking" is extremely harmful. You are doing a lot of other helpful activities, but it takes time to see the results. Speaking is useful, but not at all costs.

[zjones]

Weekly Update Mar 2, 2019

French

I dropped a couple of the weird language exchange partners. I'm practicing French on my own regularly, but intensive studying is becoming a chore. I think the weather is largely affecting my mood. It snowed almost every day in February and it dips into the single-digits regularly, and there still isn't an end in sight. I've never felt so frustrated by winter before. Digging out the car every morning and worrying about the road conditions is okay in January, but in March it's kind of ridiculous. I know other locations have longer and colder winters, but this is unexpected for us so late into winter.

I'm suddenly feeling okay with getting a lower score on the DELF than I initially wanted. I just want it to be over with, honestly, because I feel like I could progress a lot faster if I was working on B2-level stuff. Plus I'm still really pissed about not being able to get through to the Alliance Française to check whether or not my registration went through.

My friends and family are really confused when I tell them I'm taking the DELF. They want to know whether the test has any utility or if I'm taking it to become a French teacher. They don't seem to understand when I explain that I'm taking it for myself. It's okay, though. Nobody understands why I learned French in the first place, either, me included.

All of our stressed-out house-hunting may have finally come to fruition, we will see. The market is such that you better make your offer at least $10,000 higher than asking price if you want to be considered.

I feel like I'm just waiting for spring to arrive, for us to get a house, for the DELF to be over.... With some luck, these things will all be in done or in process by the beginning of April.

[zjones]

Our offer was not accepted for the house, because someone outbid us by a large chunk of money. I would be lying if I said I wasn’t crushed. Even with solid finances, we can’t compete against that. There will be other houses, I know... it’s just tough to deal with in the moment, even though I tried very hard not to get attached to the house.

[Cavesa]

I dropped a couple of the weird language exchange partners.

YAY! I think this is a good step forwards. LE shouldn't be an unpleasant chore and you sounded like you had been more frustrated with some of them lately than profiting from the exchange. So, I think this is great news!

I'm suddenly feeling okay with getting a lower score on the DELF than I initially wanted. I just want it to be over with, honestly, because I feel like I could progress a lot faster if I was working on B2-level stuff. Plus I'm still really pissed about not being able to get through to the Alliance Française to check whether or not my registration went through.

Not getting a perfect score is ok. But you will definitely do fine, I am sure of it!

And yeah, the AF sometimes sucks, when it comes to organising things. Around my DALF, I was surprised (and not in a pleasant way), that the official information on the local AF's website was less accurate and also less official than the the officialest information on some central website of the AF, which was not that easy to find (not that easy for a C2 who hadn't been told to look for it. Not likely to be found by anyone at B1 or lower). This is how the french tend to work. They compensate more then well by personal willingness to help and get through the bureaucracy though. But just getting to the people and to the right info is sometimes difficult. I wish you a lot of strength.

And when we are talking about bureaucrats, which gradation sounds better?
official, officialer, the officialest or official, more official, the most official
I'd say for joking, "the officialest" works nicely, but I am not native.

My friends and family are really confused when I tell them I'm taking the DELF. They want to know whether the test has any utility or if I'm taking it to become a French teacher. They don't seem to understand when I explain that I'm taking it for myself. It's okay, though. Nobody understands why I learned French in the first place, either, me included.

That's normal, families are confused rather often. The worse moment is getting yourself confused. That hurts much more. Well, would they be just as confused about other hobbies? Perhaps when you pass the exam, they will be proud, despite being confused.

Perhaps you'll discover the reason later on

I feel like I'm just waiting for spring to arrive, for us to get a house, for the DELF to be over.... With some luck, these things will all be in done or in process by the beginning of April.

I know this feeling so much! Sending a hug (if you like friendly hugs. If not, then just a shared sigh about the state of our lives)