Zelda's 2019 French Log

[Iversen]

Hurray - I have learned a new English word: "furloughed".

[zjones]

I received Assimil Spanish in the mail today and completed the first lesson.

During the wait for Assimil, M. did his own studying with Language Transfer Spanish. I did a few lessons as well, but it's hard for me to remember to study if there isn't a physical reminder lying on my coffee table. Now M. can speak short phrases in Spanish, and I admit to feeling irritated when he replies to me in Spanish as if I can understand him. Overall, I am happy he has time to practice and one-up me in Spanish, since I got to do that to him with French.

OK. So, we are at a fork in the road and trying to decide whether we're going to follow the Spain or Latin American pronunciation of the letter "c". We are both partial to the Latin American accent - and I prefer the Mexican accent in particular - but Assimil follows the Spain pronunciation. So we are trying to decide if it's worthwhile to listen to the Spanish accent but practice speaking in a Latin American accent, if that makes sense. If we do learn the Spain accent, will it be difficult to switch to the Latin American pronunciation? Advice from other Spanish learners/speakers is appreciated!

[eido]

I don't think it should be difficult to switch pronunciations if you have a good base in one. As in, if you know the rough outline of the language, it should give you grounding for a nice springboard.

When I was learning Spanish in high school, we learned both accents at the same time for the sake of teaching a broader/wider view of the language that would make us well-rounded students. You could try that approach if it would help in the ultimate goal of fluency. For, after all, getting a "certifiable" [ ] level of Spanish requires knowledge of all accents to a degree... or so I've heard. But I'm still a novice.

[jonm]

OK. So, we are at a fork in the road and trying to decide whether we're going to follow the Spain or Latin American pronunciation of the letter "c". We are both partial to the Latin American accent - and I prefer the Mexican accent in particular - but Assimil follows the Spain pronunciation. So we are trying to decide if it's worthwhile to listen to the Spanish accent but practice speaking in a Latin American accent, if that makes sense. If we do learn the Spain accent, will it be difficult to switch to the Latin American pronunciation? Advice from other Spanish learners/speakers is appreciated!

I'm in a similar situation with Portuguese. I might go to Portugal when travel is an option again, so it would make sense to learn European Portuguese, but I already have the Assimil for Brazilian Portuguese (and also, there are so many speakers of Brazilian Portuguese, and I like the way it sounds, and I can't go to Portugal right away anyway), so I'm starting out with that. I'm hoping to learn both varieties, though I haven't worked out the best way to do that without mixing them up. So if you do learn more than one variety of Spanish, I'll be interested in how it goes.

Here's what I can say about Spanish. For context, I'm probably a low C1, or maybe it's rusted into a high B2, and I mostly learned Spanish in Madrid and other parts of Spain that do make the distinción between /θ/ ("c" and "z") and /s/, so I do too.

First, if you decide not to distinguish between the two sounds, I don't think it will be a big impediment to understanding and being understood by speakers who do. Forum members from Spain could maybe give a fuller perspective than I can, but I think speakers who make the distinction will be fairly accustomed to hearing speakers who don't. (And even if they weren't, it wouldn't be a bigger barrier to communication than when non-native speakers of English pronounce /θ/ as [s] and /ð/ as [z] in English "th" words, which is pretty common and not a big deal, I don't think.)

And then this would only matter if you decide you want to distinguish between the two sounds in your own speech at least some of the time, but if you did start out following the pronunciation of the Assimil speakers and making the distinction, I think it would be easy to switch, but harder (not impossible) to do the reverse. The first way, you would be learning words with /θ/ in some places and /s/ in others, and you could fairly easily switch to pronouncing all the /θ/ sounds as [s] and switch back again, because you'd have categorized them separately in your mind as instances of a distinct phoneme. Whereas if you start out with a single phoneme /s/, it's harder to recategorize some instances of it later.

The wonderfully transparent spelling makes that fairly easy to do on the (probably rare) occasions when you're reading out loud, but for conversation, you kind of relearn a word at a time, making that little adjustment to the way you pronounce it. At least that's how it was for me when I got to Spain and switched from the pronunciation I'd learned in school in the US. (Also, even if you distinguish /θ/ and /s/ from the beginning, there will probably be a bit of that word-by-word adjusting because of cognates in English and French that don't have the /θ/ sound.)

But again, it's only an issue if you want to distinguish the sounds in your own speech, and if you decide not to, that won't really get in the way of talking to people who do. And it can be motivating to learn the accent you like best, or the accent of people you know or places where you might travel.

Hope that helps, and good luck with Spanish!

[zjones]

Thank you all for sharing your opinion on Spanish pronunciation! We've chosen to use the typical Spain pronunciation, which means using the /θ/ sound (thank you jonm for the IPA), and we will switch further down the road if necessary. I've warmed up to the Spain pronunciation and I enjoy hearing and saying it now.

I stopped using Language Transfer, so the only resource I'm using to learn Spanish is Assimil Español, and let me tell you... 15 lessons in and I am struggling with grammar and conjugation a lot. The lack of personal pronouns is confusing for me. With French, I got two pieces of information (personal pronoun and conjugated verb) to help me understand the sentence, but with Spanish I'm floundering. I'm not sure if I'll stick with Assimil as a single learning resource -- as a sort of test -- or if I'll buckle and start using a grammar book or website.

I'm only studying for about 15 minutes a day, following the Assimil method. That's the most I can give to active language study right now, especially considering that I don't feel extremely passionate about Spanish.

I've started birding seriously. This time I am trying to make it a habit by going out and doing "patch work" (studying birds in my local area) every evening after work. I am also trying to learn bird calls and songs to assist with bird ID and observation, and I wonder how closely that will parallel language/sound learning. My ear is not very attuned to bird song since I have only ever relied on visual identification. It's not as simple as knowing the song of a species, because there are regional and individual variations, so things can get very fuzzy very fast. For example, the Mountain Chickadees in my area tend to make a three note song "fee-bee-yee" in a minor key, with each note descending in pitch, which also closely resembles the initial notes in the song of a White-Throated Sparrow and a Golden-Crowned Sparrow.

In my birding notebook I am trying to keep track of the sound a bird makes and its corresponding behavior, but much of it is a mystery. Besides, I am garbage at memorizing or remembering which bird makes which song. I guess that is what makes it fun.

[Carmody]

If you are really serious about birding, Welcome Aboard!

You may wish to check this out also:
https://www.youtube.com/user/LesleytheBirdNerd

[zjones]

It's not 2019 anymore, is it?

Hi everyone. My French has been slowly deteriorating for the last couple years, but it's not that bad. I'm in school now, working toward my undergrad in Biology, and I'll be taking a French class when I can fit it around my labs (sadly, probably in 2023). The French prof did a conversational assessment of my skills and said I should be focusing on future and subjunctive tenses. He was impressed that I was self-taught, which made me feel good.

Conversing with the prof in French was scary, difficult, and really, REALLY fun. I forgot how much I love the words, the shapes, the richness of the language. So now I'm trying to do a little bit of French every day, because I might be able to bump up to the next class if I can get to where I was in 2019. So I thought I'd pop in and update my log every once in a while.

Edit: want to list my current resources: Didier Edito B2, Build a Strong Core (B1), Intermediate French (B1). Maybe I will reread Changer L'eau des Fleurs.

[StringerBell]

Hey Zelda! I was just thinking about you and wondering if you were still doing French.

I wanted to mention getting college credit via CLEP exams, in case you don't know about them (many people don't). There are a ton of CLEP exams you can take in almost every field (including various levels of French). Last time I checked, each test was $69. You can get CLEP test prep books from most local libraries or bookstores to get a feel for the structure of the exam and to gauge if you're likely to pass it (You only need to score slightly above 50% correct to pass). It's a really cheap (and fast) way to accumulate college credit without spending the time and money to take a class for a whole semester, it's really ideal for people who are good at studying on their own.

If you prefer to take a French class just for the fun of it, then it obviously this wouldn't make sense, but if you just don't have time for it because of your other classes, your level is probably high enough to pass the lower level (=6 credit hours). I amassed 30 CLEP credits in various math classes when I was working in a field that offered a pay increase for 30 college credit above a master's degree. You could probably also knock off other gen ed requirements this way (if you still have any left to do).

[zjones]

Stringerbell, thank you for mentioning the CLEP! I didn't know that was an option. Although I want to take a French class for fun, if I decide to go to a school like University of Washington, I will need another 5 credits of language that are not covered by my degree plan. I'd probably take the CLEP in that case, since it's much more effective than paying $500 to squeeze in another language class.

I haven't been as consistent with French as I wanted over winter break, but I have made some time for the Build a Strong Core course and reading Changer L'eau des Fleurs. I'm not hugely interested in reading the same book again, though. I asked for Le Hobbit for Christmas, so we'll see if my husband comes through on that.

I have been feeling kind of overwhelmed when I think about working on French. I don't really know how to improve from this point, because I have gaps but I'm not really sure where they are anymore. My motivation is waning, especially for reading and writing French. I wonder if other people have felt this way coming back to a language after a break?

A very terrible thing has happened, though: I started playing Assassin's Creed Odyssey again, and I have been reminded how much I love the sound of Greek. I am trying not to break out Assimil le grec again. I probably won't have much time for language once school starts in early January, so adding in Greek isn't really a good idea, even though that's where my motivation is...

[MorkTheFiddle]

I have been feeling kind of overwhelmed when I think about working on French. I don't really know how to improve from this point, because I have gaps but I'm not really sure where they are anymore. My motivation is waning, especially for reading and writing French. I wonder if other people have felt this way coming back to a language after a break?

Yes, after a rather long break from German, I tried picking it up again. The noun genders and case system as a whole simply overwhelmed me, so I just gave it up. Not touched it since, and no plans to, either. And I am comfortable with giving up. (This is NOT to say I am encouraging you to give up! just saying I've been in your boat).