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Morgana
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Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9665
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby Morgana » Sun Jan 13, 2019 2:33 am

Colloquial Icelandic, p. 160, Unit 8, Dialogue 4 wrote:"Og hvað er þetta?"
"Við köllum þetta svið, það eru kindahausar sem eru sviðnur og klofnir í tvennt, og svo soðnir."
"En augun og nefið sjást ennþá! Það er að horfa á mann! En hryllilegt!"
"Það lítur kannski ekki svo fallega út, en kjötið er mjúkt og bragðgott. Sumum þykir gott að borða augun, en ykkur er velkomið að sleppa því…"
Mmmm. /s

--------

I haven't accomplished a lot since last time. Only a few chapters into Swedish HP3, still spinning my wheels in unit 8 of Colloquial Icelandic. I got tired of the dillydallying with the various languages on the side.

With Swedish I decided to try an audiobook that I've never read the book for :shock: So I started Röta late last night. Coming as news to no one: it is indeed harder to understand something you've not listened to and/or read before. I'm looking forward to getting through this book via the audiobook though. It will hopefully be interesting to read the book afterward and see what I missed and/or what I was able to work out.

Oh. I'm also maybe going to try to watch all four seasons of Bron, without subtitles, within the next 30 days. 38 episodes, about one hour each, it shouldn't be impossible. I've watched seasons 1-3 before, with English subs. I think over a year ago. Watching now with no subs (well, except the ones they have in Swedish when the Danes are speaking) will probably be a challenge. I don't watch tv intensively, ie. no pausing and jumping back 10 seconds to try to catch things I missed, that drives me crazy. I just let it play through.

With Icelandic, there's not much to say. I had a few stalemates with the textbook where I couldn't take it anymore but couldn't just leave the course halfway through :lol: I'm fed up with Anki some days, fed up with making my sentences deck, and then other days I see how it's doing me at least some favours... of course there are probably better ways to get the same results, but given my inconsistent effort I think for now SRS is my best bet.
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Morgana
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby Morgana » Wed Jan 23, 2019 3:42 am

Icelandic: Starting with language #2 because it's been prioritized since last time. I don't know what exactly happened, I had a few days where I was questioning everything, you know, "why am I studying this language, why do I keep wanting to add something else, do I just not like Icelandic, is it the course, is it Anki, is it the way I do the course and/or Anki, is it Icelandic itself, what if I quit" etc. What it resulted in was deciding I was going to finish Colloquial Icelandic in 90 days or else. Or else what? I don't know, probably nothing, but I think it's the course and the way I've approached the course that keeps making me drag my feet on Icelandic so the idea is to burn through the last half of it in a fraction of the time it has taken me to procrastinate through the first half!

So, since last update, I've finished unit 8 and unit 9. Unit 9 was harder than it appeared at first. Mostly having to do with the genitive case, I think it's generally straight forward but some of the wording and/or examples in Colloquial were somewhat poor in my opinion. They kind of used a muddled example to demonstrate using posessive pronouns with nouns in possessive constructions. It tripped me up for two days haha.

I've also started listening to a podcast on RÚV called Ég segi ekki alltaf allt gott. It's kind of interesting. That's right, I said it's kind of interesting, because I can barely understand a very small amount of it! :lol: I am THRILLED because I have not had good times trying to listen to authentic Icelandic in the past, which was mostly my fault because I've only tried listening to tv (which is probably the worst native material to try to understand as a foreigner). But mostly, listening to the podcast is catching the odd word I know here and there. There are some whole sentences I understand. There are also some whole sentences where I know what every word is but I have no idea what they all mean together :lol: It's good times.

This is where all the Icelandic podcasts are on RÚV apparently. I don't know if it's all the aspiration but listening to Icelandic always feels calming. Even (especially?) if I have no idea what's being said.


Swedish: Icelandic becoming prioritized means I haven't been putting as much time into Swedish. I'm 5 episodes (halfway) into season 2 of Bron. I love watching this show and the best part this time through is that I'm not using subtitles other than the ones that show up when the Danes are speaking. I understand a fair bit but not everything. Of course watching Bron as my main/only Swedish activity some days is not the most efficient way to spend the decreased Swedish time, since 50% (give or take) of the show is in Danish. But it's interesting and even suspenseful despite my having watched it a year or so ago, so I'm enjoying it. The one downside (if you can call it that) is that I almost constantly have some kind of Swedish earworm running in my head. All the time. I'm prone to this with music and I guess since I haven't been listening to much of that, the next-most familiar thing has taken over.

I'm a few chapters into the Röta audiobook by now too. It's a bit uneasy on occasion because I have some comprehension issues when there are new characters for example. The whole prologue was a big "what is happening :shock: :? " because, as in a lot of novels, the author throws you right into the middle of the action and in this case with none of the familiar characters. But otherwise I'm enjoying the book when I have time to listen and it's nice to "read" something I haven't read already (ie. not Harry Potter!).

Progress on Harry Potter och fången från Azkaban is stalled somewhere maybe in chapter 4? I can't remember. I fully intend to shift focus back to reading once I'm through Bron in a few more weeks.


Well that's all! I'm doing my best to get down to business when I have time rather than procrastinate which was the old routine... For now I'm running on the excitement of finishing Colloquial Icelandic hopefully within a few months and moving on to funner things.
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Neurotip
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby Neurotip » Wed Jan 23, 2019 10:21 pm

Morgana wrote:I've also started listening to a podcast on RÚV called Ég segi ekki alltaf allt gott. It's kind of interesting. That's right, I said it's kind of interesting, because I can barely understand a very small amount of it! :lol: I am THRILLED ... I don't know if it's all the aspiration but listening to Icelandic always feels calming. Even (especially?) if I have no idea what's being said.

Yay frábært! Great to hear. I hadn't come across that podcast but having listened to a couple of minutes of it now I agree it's nice and clear, not too fast. I also agree that for all its crunchy edges Icelandic is quite a gentle language really.

And isn't it nice to learn some useful phrases for everyday life? Like að borða augun, for example. :shock:

Wrt Anki, I know what you mean about only learning one form of a word. When I was using Anki for Icelandic, I tried to discipline myself that whenever a verb came up I'd go through 'hann stendur, þau standa, hann stóð, þau stóðu, hann hefur staðið' (yes I had to look that up) - I managed to get into that habit and it did help, but it was more difficult with nouns as there are so many forms - not sure I have the answer to that one. Maybe cycle through - nominative for the first one that comes up, accusative for the second, etc.?

Good to hear Icelandic is giving you something back. Keep it up!
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Morgana
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby Morgana » Sun Jan 27, 2019 3:54 am

Neurotip wrote:Wrt Anki, I know what you mean about only learning one form of a word. When I was using Anki for Icelandic, I tried to discipline myself that whenever a verb came up I'd go through 'hann stendur, þau standa, hann stóð, þau stóðu, hann hefur staðið' (yes I had to look that up) - I managed to get into that habit and it did help, but it was more difficult with nouns as there are so many forms - not sure I have the answer to that one. Maybe cycle through - nominative for the first one that comes up, accusative for the second, etc.?

:shock: Wow I was just learning nominative singular for nouns, singular masculine for adjectives, and the infinitive for verbs (though sometimes the middle voice version or whatever, if that's what was used in the textbook). I'm basically counting on this going how Swedish has gone for me, wherein I just have a feel for how vowels shift etc. It's impossible to memorize all that stuff, Icelandic has way too much of it. At least for a mere mortal like me :P

--------------

Icelandic: So it's only four days since last update but I'm already done unit 10 in Colloquial Icelandic. It was about communication, using phone and email, booking appointments, etc. As I'm getting through these units so much more quickly now I'm realizing just how much of my own worst enemy I've been about this language since I started. Not in a "poor me" way, I feel pretty indifferent/"liberated" about it all at this point. But it's good for perspective. It's good to be able to clear an entire unit in 4-5 days and look back and see how I was spending 4-6 weeks on a unit in the past and that it wasn't actually that difficult, that it was me who had made it out to be difficult, or made it out to be boring, or made it out to be something I didn't want to do.

I should mention that I've been doing anywhere between 20 and 50 new cards/day in Anki to be able to get through the units this quickly, and that likely played a role in my procrastination over the months. But for whatever reason I'm just deciding to do it. Sometimes I open Anki up first thing because I convince myself "eh just do 30 reviews right now and that's 30 less to do later" and then before I realize it I've finished all my reviews for the day. I wish I could tell you why I'm getting things done now but I have no idea why. Sometimes it's best not to question haha.


Swedish: Three episodes into season 3 of Bron. This show is so emotional and so dark that it's pretty heavy to watch at times. Season 3 is extremely brutal to the main character, especially after the way season 2 ends. I also only just recently realized they made an American/Mexican version of this show? I don't think I'll watch because whenever I do that with other versions (ie. watch the original language first and then later watch the American remake), the American remake always overrides my memory of the original.

I have been getting 20-30 minutes of reading in every night since last update, so I'm making (slow) progress through Harry Potter och fången från Azkaban again. No more progress on the Röta audiobook unfortunately. I've been adding 10-15 words to Anki once or twice per week from my reading, but I check the Kelly list first because I don't want to add extremely obscure vocab to Anki until I've gotten a much better grasp of the more common words. I'm getting lots of words without Anki though, and I know this, because reading gets easier despite my lazy use of the app.


Other: Any foodies learning Icelandic? There are a lot of beautiful food/cooking blogs in Icelandic that I found when googling unknown food items from unit 8.
https://heilsumamman.com/
https://eldhussogur.com/
http://www.allskonar.is/

I'm not a foodie but even I can't resist:
Eldhússögur wrote:Marengsterta með créme brulée skyri og piparlakkrískurli
img_6408.jpg
img_6408.jpg (110.9 KiB) Viewed 320 times
(I hope it's ok to post the photo from the food blog with a link to the source but if not I will take it down.)
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Morgana
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Languages: English (N)
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby Morgana » Mon Feb 04, 2019 12:06 am

I've been a combination of sick+busy so naturally my routine has changed up a bit. And by changed up, I mean I've just been watching Bron and keeping up with Anki :lol: But this is good because it's given me an opportunity to consider how I'm using Anki.


Anyway here are some links to different websites/blogs that discuss Anki and tweaking/optimising the settings:
Last edited by Morgana on Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:00 am, edited 1 time in total.
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Morgana
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby Morgana » Thu Feb 07, 2019 11:49 pm

While still staying focused on Swedish and Icelandic, I've been mentally toying with how to approach and structure any possible additional language(s) I might want to have along just for fun and curiosity's sake. I know there are at least a few forumers who engage with several languages regularly, with small chunks of time, but whenever I've tried it myself it doesn't seem to work out for me. Maybe I haven't approached it the right way though. I'm not sure if there is a low-effort, low-commitment method to acquiring a language to a mediocre (but improvable) level, especially for smaller languages. Or maybe I make it a bit too ambitious and structured whenever I try.

For now, I've got one on the side that I'm doing semi-seriously as much as time permits. The shiny-and-new thing is always the easier thing to sink time into, but so far I'm managing to make sure I spend my quality time on Swedish and Icelandic. There are two other languages I'm curious about and want to test out, but it gets a bit hard to manage unless I start shrinking every language down to 30 minutes. I know that's how some people make it work, but particularly with Icelandic right now I like being able to put in 60+ minutes on as many days as I can so that I feel like I'm moving forward with it. I guess if I'm not serious about these other languages and truly just want to have them along for fun/curiosity, then it should be alright to squeeze in 15 or 20 minutes for a little while until I either get bored or serious. But then I'm not quite sure what to work with from the start. Maybe I should just grab the audio from 50languages for now. Get the $1 subscriptions from LangugaePod101 for each language and download as many lessons as I can in one month. Actually that's kind of a good way to gauge true interest: have access to resources but never touch them? I probably am not that interested.

Oh well I'll update more on that when I figure out more.

Another thing I've been trying to do in time management improvement is have forum-free days (sacrilege!) and then after X days away from the forum, have a forum-binge day where it's the reverse dynamic (as much forum as I want and no guilt for neglecting study). Buuuuuuuut I'm still here aren't I?? :lol: Maybe one of these days I'll become a studious person, but for now I'm lazy and noncommittal. Also I honestly think the degree of wanderlust I experience is directly proportional to how much time I spend reading about language learning. In particular about languages I am not currently learning :lol: Maybe I'd drop all the side-language ideas if I ever succeeded at reducing the frequency with which I read about language learning.

Onto the languages:

Icelandic: Getting into Colloquial Icelandic unit 11 finally. Accommodations. I'm bored just reading the title. The first dialogue, the transcript of which I have not yet read, is about booking a room at a hotel. For the last few dialogues, I've been taking some "blind" listens before starting to read along with the audio, and I have been pleased with how much I am able to understand. I can not only determine what's going on, but also work out some of the new vocabulary just from the context. Of course, Colloquial has been uneven in this regard, where in the early units one dialogue would seem like a comfortable progression from the previous one, and then the next dialogue would be i+50. I’ll likely be slapped in the face with incomprehensible material again at some point, but for now I’ll take the little confidence boost from understanding new audio material before reading and deciphering.

My listening to podcasts has fallen by the wayside and I intend to pick that back up. On the other hand, I have kept up with Anki. I've made the adjustments to my decks that are described in the links in my last update. I'm looking forward to an improved Anki experience going forward.

Swedish: It's almost boring to talk about what I'm doing with Swedish because it's just the same thing all the time. Listening and reading. I wrapped up Bron a few days ago, and was quite pleased with how the series ended. I was also thrilled with my listening comprehension for most of the series. I am realizing that I have good days and bad days and neither of them are representative of the average. By the end of the series there were entire scenes where it seemed like I could hear every single word perfectly and be able to process and understand with absolutely no effort. There were also scenes where I'd feel the need to switch the Swedish subtitles on and even skip back 15 seconds to catch what I missed. So, it's uneven, but it's going good places I guess. I'm happy with it right now. I'm sure in a month I'll swing back to feeling like it's not good enough, but I'm happy right now :D

I'm now back to listening to the Röta audiobook. I struggle to pay attention to audio-only things, which is a good part of the reason why I fell off the Icelandic podcasts too, but with Swedish I make more effort to stick with things since I can actually understand the things I'm hearing :lol: But my attention just seems to drift no matter what. If I have the audiobook playing while I do chores/busywork like folding laundry, then I'll just not seem to be able to "listen" properly. If I have the audiobook on and am not doing something else at the same time, my mind wanders and/or I start looking for things to do with my hands and/or eyes. It's a constant effort to consciously bring myself back to the task at hand.

On the positive side, YA audiobooks seem to be another area where I am quite happy with my listening comprehension. I can feel so surprised sometimes that I'm able to understand anything, nevermind understand it well, because it feels like it happened all of a sudden and without really trying. (Both are lies, it improved gradually, and I sure as heck did and do try!!! Imposter syndrome anyone??)

Still reading Harry Potter och fången från Azkaban! I can hardly bring myself to read for a full 30 minutes every night. However, despite breaking for a couple weeks to watch Bron, I feel like my reading is better right now. It feels smoother, and like I have to look up less. Could just be an easier section of the book.

Other than the above I'm just keeping up with Anki reviews. I keep meaning to make some new cards but... I don't.

And since I started this post off with the "other" stuff, I have nothing to wrap up with :?
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Morgana
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby Morgana » Sat Feb 09, 2019 2:37 am

Mary Hobson's 8 tips for mastering Russian
1. Make it a part of your life. "Bus-stop Russian." When you have to do boring crap, you do Russian at the same time. "Rehearse" grammar stuff. "What I did was to make it part of my life and I think that's absolutely vital. [Don't] just do it for an hour a day or something, but just have it going on all the time."
2. Talk to yourself. "Nobody hears the mistakes." Look up whatever words you don't know afterwards, "as quickly as possible, and put them in your memory, and not on a list! On a list, they are forgotten. They're safe on a list. But it's the memory you're trying to develop."
3. Keep practicing stuff in your head. Describe what you're doing all the time. "Have it in your head all the time."
4. Make use of a good dictionary. TL>NL and NL>TL. Look at the words around the word you looked up to learn related words. "Remember the roots and connect them into a family of words."
5. Read Russian classic authors. She grew her vocabulary by "reading and reading and reading." She can't talk about cheese sandwiches or tax law, but she doesn't want to anyway.
6. Accept your ignorance. You're not going to know much when you start and that's fine.
7. Recite poetry to learn stress. Russian stress is allegedly a nightmare. She mentions Pushkin to make it better.
8. Find yourself a language buddy. This sounds like she's recommending LE partners, but also someone who can help you at your individual level.

I'm glad I'm not learning Russian so I don't have to follow any of this advice! /s

The above linked video was originally posted by reineke in his own log. I summarized it here for my own reference. Ms. Hobson reminds me of Kató Lomb.
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby Elenia » Sat Feb 09, 2019 4:15 pm

Morgana, you have me listening to Icelandic radio. I think. I don't even know?
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Morgana
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby Morgana » Mon Feb 18, 2019 10:04 pm

I didn't realize today was going to be a holiday. I could have slept more. Oh well.

I'm very appreciative of the responses I received from Xmmm and from reineke (also here) to what I asked in Xmmm's log. I've been thinking on them and will continue to think on them. There is a lot of interesting anecdata in the way each of them approaches their learning. I also find other logs interesting for similar and different reasons, most recently (and generally) for example ロータス's log. And others too, there are lots of examples around here and elsewhere but I can't possibly name them all.

Mostly what's so appealing to me lately in the above examples is the near-total absence of SRS. The "lazy" "just watch tv" thing is also appealing but I'm not sure that part is as well suited to me. I think it works and I think it absolutely should (and needs?) to play a role at some point if one wants to learn well and thoroughly ("but . . .").

Perhaps foolishly, I'm going ahead with a personal "experiment" with two side languages. It's not really an experiment because people have done it before, or at least variations, and I could just read their experiences instead of acting like I'm doing something novel. What makes it different, maybe, is that I'm doing it without intending to get anywhere, and I'm doing it without taking any of it seriously. And no Anki! No SRS in general. This is the main thing for me. Can I be lazy, and inconsistent*, and not spend much time on task and still learn without scheduled remembering? Not learn fast or learn thoroughly or learn everything, but learn something? Or will it be time thrown into the void, sort of like when I'm browsing Reddit (or here!).

---------------

Lazy and Curious: my own personal experiment (Take this "mock" scientific method format with a grain of salt.) To anyone wondering what happened with this, I totally dropped it less than two weeks in ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ :| :| :| :P

Question/Purpose:
Can I satisfy my curiosity and relieve my listlessness with regards to language learning without straining and stressing myself out or disappointing myself? Will I feel like I've made satisfactory progress after 99 days of minimal effort to the extent that I feel it is worth continuing? If it is "futile" to learn this way, will I at least finally extinguish all the desire to learn more than two languages at a time?

Hypothesis:
After spending countless dozens (hundreds? :shock: ) of hours reading the forum and other places over the years, I do not believe I will be able to remember much with a minimal time investment and no memory "hacks" like Anki. I think I may feel frustrated and uninspired after say 99 days of following such a "method."

Materials:
  • Japanese - Japanese with Ease by Assimil, volumes 1 and 2.
  • Finnish - FinnishPod101 Absolute Beginner, Lower Beginner, Beginner, and Extensive Reading for Beginners series.
Experiment:
Oh man this is turning into a lot of work. Ok hm the "procedure."
  • Japanese - Everyday for the next 99** days I will complete one Assimil lesson as described*** in the Assimil book that accompanied the Japanese with Ease volume 1 course. I will not use SRS tools such as Anki. I will not use any extra aids.
  • Finnish - Everyday for the next 99** days (because that's how long the Assimil course above is) I will listen through to one of the FinnishPod101 lessons, refer to the Lesson Notes as needed, and listen to the Lesson Dialogue as many times as I feel is adequate. No SRS tools such as Anki, no extra aids.
Uh, am I meant to have a control as well? That's not really the point of this. I'm taking this way too seriously ahh I've failed the experiment already! :lol:


---------------

"Analysis" will be provided via log updates. I intend to post the daily time spent (not daily though) so that I can look back at it and see just how little I've invested. I'm anticipating and intending that the daily time spent will be around 30 minutes or less.

Btw this is not serious. This whole "experiment" format is because I didn't think today was a holiday so I've got extra time on my hands to make elaborate jokes that probably only I find funny. Yes, it's basically dabbling. Except dabbling for me usually lasts days not months and if it does last months it has transformed into Real Studying ie. work. So that's what's different.

Disclaimer: I have already learned hiragana via japanese-lesson.com and Real Kana and am currently working through the katakana with those two websites as well. I've also got the Kana Mind app on my phone that I've played with a couple of times but it's not contributing much. With regards to japanese-lesson.com, I was doing the full Reading and Writing sections for the first 5-6 rows of hiragana but that was overkill and burning me out. I switched to just watching the stroke order videos 1-2x (those are the first videos to appear in the Reading section of each lesson), then practice on the Real Kana website.

There is also the Kanji Study app which I believe is paid but let's you practice kana for free. I was using it while learning hiragana for hiragana practice (there is a multiple choice option). I don't think this app is necessary. What I did with it was after having finished learning the hiragana and continuing to practice with Real Kana, I used the Kanji Study app once a day to run through the hiragana on multichoice and I'd see my % correct increase daily, and that kind of feedback was motivating to me for the few days I needed it.


Btw the date 96** days from today is May 25, 2019.

In case it needs saying Swedish and Icelandic proceed as usual! This little distraction is not intended to impact them.

*I'm hoping I won't be inconsistent.
**It will be 96 days, because I've already "completed" the first 3 lessons.
***"The first stage of your studies with Japanese with Ease is passive. Until Lesson 49, you will listen and read aloud, do your exercises, and have fun by trying to learn some kana and Chinese characters. ... It will be enough at the beginning to understand, allowing yourself to be immersed in the language." The active phase is meant to be started with Lesson 50, but at least for now I do not intend to do an active phase.
Last edited by Morgana on Sat Mar 09, 2019 2:09 am, edited 1 time in total.
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ロータス
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Re: Slow and (un)steady: Swedish and others

Postby ロータス » Tue Feb 19, 2019 12:45 am

Can't wait to see how many words you learn from just one source. Only seen StringerBell do the same and make it past the grind lol.

Since you are aren't using a pop dictionary, the beginning is going to be the hardest part but you WILL start to see the same words over and over again. Even if it is just a "Hmm I think I looked up this word before" that is better than when you started out. When I started Clozemaster HSK 3 and all I was seeing was new words constantly, I got discouraged. Started thinking "how on earth did I go through this with HSK 1 and 2. I'm not seeing any repetition at all :(" but I kept going and old sentences popped back up again and new ones with old words came as well. Now, words I saw in Clozemaster are appearing in my readings and I'm learning them much faster than if I just saw them once in a dialog. Maybe not pure no SRS but if you find you like this experiment, I recommend checking out Clozemaster in your target languages for stress free* vocabulary learning.

* Don't have to worry about the reviews because they pop up as you are learning new sentences.
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