Morgana's log

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tiia
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby tiia » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:55 pm

Morgana wrote: Shhhhhh, you were supposed to go along with pretending you didn't notice :lol:

:oops:

Morgana wrote:
tiia wrote:However, I noticed that adding the target languages to the log title increased the number of readers.
Indeed. Though, one small correction: it was adding popular target languages to the log title that increased the views. I had had Swedish, and then also Icelandic, as part of my log title for a long time.

I cannot tell the difference, since I put Finnish and Spanish at the same time there. But I noticed that I got more comments when I started Swedish... Maybe because there are not too many people learning it? Or because I was such a beginner, that people were eager to help me. Or maybe I was just asking more questions. I don't know. I never got corrections for my few Spanish posts, but for Swedish I got some, and even a few for Finnish.

Morgana wrote:My purpose in writing the part you quoted here was to express what most language learners are doing and why it makes sense vs. what I have done. Let's consider your case, though: you live in Finland now. I assume at least some of the duration of your learning had been spent with the hope or intent to migrate.

And now generally: most people who have a longterm primary focus on a small(-ish) language are probably planning to use that language at some point because of loved ones, a career, relocation, etc. So it makes sense to learn them. For someone not doing those things it maybe isn't such a great plan. Unless one just really loves the language at all costs. I'm not judging anybody's reasons for learning, just pointing out what tends to be the case with the majority of language learners. They go for big languages, not small ones.

Well although I cannot deny completely that the thought of moving there had been in my mind like some kind of dream, I do think you're making it too easy here. Here I had written what got me into Finnish in the first place. Really I just thought that it's such a crazy and funny language that I have to learn it. And I had a lot of fun learning Finnish, got to know other learners etc. But I also put a lot of effort in these things.
Getting the exchange placement (after 6 years of learning) was an incredibly great opporunity (btw. my faculty had no exchange placement in Finland, but in Sweden and Iceland. If I had not learned Finnish already, Iceland would have been THE choice. But so, I had to get the placement through another faculty.) After the exchange I was certain I would like to move there, because I had been so happy during that time. Anyway, I became pretty unsure as my studies took me way longer than expected. I was not even completely sure, whether I would really stay for more than the three months when I came last summer.
But there was one thing I was always certain about: Finnish would always have its place in my heart and I wouldn't let it got, as it had brought me so much joy already. I sometimes went as far to say (to myself) that although my love life isn't working out at all, I have at least Finnish (and it cannot run away).* :lol:

However, I do understand that in general people learn such exotic or "small" languages often for their partners or because they just ended up living in the country where it's spoken. (But a lot of expats here don't speak any Finnish.) I mean I've met such people here a lot. I agree with you, when it's about the majority of language learners. I just don't think I'm such a good example for that.

---------------------------------------------------------------
Morgana wrote:The day that was August 2nd:
[list][*]Russian, Assimil:[list][*]41st lesson.
[*]Now we’re learning to tell time! Oh my this seems so different from English. Genitives, ordinal numerals, ugh and Russian does that "half-six" thing like the Brits... I always have to do the math when I hear "half-four" or "half-eleven" like why is it so hard to just say "ten-thirty?!" I wanted the time, not a math problem! :lol: :lol:


Here's a spoiler for you for German, one where even I as a native speaker still have to think what time it actually is.
There's half-something. That's easy. But what about quarter to or quarter past? Well... Germans have TWO ways of saying that.

The first and more common one that everybody understands goes like this:
14.00 - Zwei Uhr. (Two o'clock.)
14.15 - Viertel nach zwei. (Quarter past two)
14.30 - Halb drei. (half-three.)
14.45 - Viertel vor drei. (Quarter to three.)

But then there is also the second way, that is only used in some areas in Germany:
14.00 - Zwei Uhr. (Two o'clock.) - same as before
14.15 - Viertel drei. (quarter three)
14.30 - Halb drei. (half-three.) - same as before
14.45 - Dreiviertel drei. (three-quarters three)

Dreiviertel ("three-quarters") sounds still quite logical and is at least not hard to understand. But Viertel [number] (without nach or vor) still makes me trouble. Just think of the problem that the difference between Viertel drei (14.15) and Viertel nach drei (15.15) is a whole hour!
Btw. Germans who use this expressions, always explain it with cake. Having a quarter of a cake, half of the cake three quarters of the cake and well, the full cake. (But.. aren't we eating the cake and it becomes usually less, when time goes on?)



*You know you're a language nerd, when you write with more people learning Finnish and Finns on a (German) dating site, than you have actual dates.
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Morgana
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:20 pm

Oh my I am completely without defence on this time thing because aaleks and tiia have reminded me with their examples of quarter to/after, that even in Canadian English we do the "quarter after three" or "quarter to eight" thing. However I think German is taking the cake with this "quarter three" somehow meaning 2:15 :shock: In my defence though regarding half-time, I never hear "half-whatever" so my brain hasn't had decades of working out that sort of thing to the point it's automatic lol.

tiia wrote:
Morgana wrote:My purpose in writing the part you quoted here was to express what most language learners are doing and why it makes sense vs. what I have done. Let's consider your case, though: you live in Finland now. I assume at least some of the duration of your learning had been spent with the hope or intent to migrate.

And now generally: most people who have a longterm primary focus on a small(-ish) language are probably planning to use that language at some point because of loved ones, a career, relocation, etc. So it makes sense to learn them. For someone not doing those things it maybe isn't such a great plan. Unless one just really loves the language at all costs. I'm not judging anybody's reasons for learning, just pointing out what tends to be the case with the majority of language learners. They go for big languages, not small ones.

Well although I cannot deny completely that the thought of moving there had been in my mind like some kind of dream, I do think you're making it too easy here. Here I had written what got me into Finnish in the first place. Really I just thought that it's such a crazy and funny language that I have to learn it. And I had a lot of fun learning Finnish, got to know other learners etc. But I also put a lot of effort in these things.
Getting the exchange placement (after 6 years of learning) was an incredibly great opporunity (btw. my faculty had no exchange placement in Finland, but in Sweden and Iceland. If I had not learned Finnish already, Iceland would have been THE choice. But so, I had to get the placement through another faculty.) After the exchange I was certain I would like to move there, because I had been so happy during that time. Anyway, I became pretty unsure as my studies took me way longer than expected. I was not even completely sure, whether I would really stay for more than the three months when I came last summer.
But there was one thing I was always certain about: Finnish would always have its place in my heart and I wouldn't let it got, as it had brought me so much joy already. I sometimes went as far to say (to myself) that although my love life isn't working out at all, I have at least Finnish (and it cannot run away).* :lol:

However, I do understand that in general people learn such exotic or "small" languages often for their partners or because they just ended up living in the country where it's spoken. (But a lot of expats here don't speak any Finnish.) I mean I've met such people here a lot. I agree with you, when it's about the majority of language learners. I just don't think I'm such a good example for that.
Sorry, I meant you were an exception to most learners. Most learners don't choose small languages to start with. But even so, most learners don't end up living in a country where their target language is a majority language. And fair enough about all the points, I concede I've been painting it too black and white. To juxtapose though with even your vague ideas about and then actual travel to and studying in Finland, I've never had any ideas or plans like that for Sweden. You came up with those goals and made them happen, that's important and shouldn't be diminished. I can't do the same at this stage in my life with its circumstances, and even if things were different I'm not sure I'd want to.

The other thing you touch on, that I also mentioned somewhere, is that the people who do go for smaller languages without necessarily relocating or having a relative who speaks it are probably just that passionate about the language/culture/country. Again, something I lack :lol: I mean, Sweden's cool, Swedish is fun, but I am finding that I could take it or leave it if it comes down to exerting a bunch of effort to keep it in my life. I don't think I'm explaining myself very well throughout all of this though, so I apologize. I certainly did not mean to imply that it was easier for you somehow to start and keep Finnish in your life, or that you had it all figured out from the start what you would do with it. I only intended to make comparisons for the purpose of working through my reasons or lack of :) I did a poor job. It's clear to me, though, that you are very interested in and committed to having Finnish in your life, the passion is obvious to me and your achievements are entirely admirable.
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby cjareck » Sat Aug 03, 2019 9:35 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:We have the same system in the Scandinavian languages, so it will help you since you're into Swedish as well. I can agree that the numbers 10:30 reads most easily as "ten thirty", but if you're looking at a clock face, it's just as logical to view as something related to eleven (and it's getting even closer to eleven while you're looking at it...). Also German has it. Halb elf is half an hour before eleven, i.e. 10:30. We look into the future. :)

We have something similar - you ma say "W pół do jedenastej" ("in half to the eleven"). Of course, there is also a "Dziesiąta trzydzieści" ("ten-thirty").
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Sun Aug 04, 2019 4:22 am

Well I made the choice to check the forum earlier today instead of getting to my languages, and as a result I almost bailed on German for the second day in a row. But I got it in!

August 3rd then:
  • Russian, Assimil:
    • 42nd lesson.
    • It was a review lesson, so not much to comment on, other than these always feel like a lot of information at once.
  • Swedish, Röta L2R2:
    • I did chapters 11-13 today. 39 minutes. I am about one day's listening ahead of where I want to be to finish the book by the end of the month.
    • Sorry no chapter summaries today :P It requires a surprising amount of effort to try to snarkily summarize a few chapters in 2-3 sentences each.
  • German, Assimil:
    • 38th lesson.
    • Every now and then I forget to change the TTS on Anki over to German before making cards, and I get the Yandex Russian TTS reading German to me :lol: I should try it in the opposite direction sometime.
    • I wish I had more stuff to say about German. I guess when things are going smoothly there's not a lot to comment on.


I have mixed feelings about doing these daily updates. I might go to doing one every few days as long as I still keep doing my daily lessons.
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Tue Aug 06, 2019 1:35 am

August 4th + 5th:
  • Russian, Assimil: lessons 43 and 44. Lesson 44 felt a bit lighter than the last few, mercifully. Learned about happy, sad, and had the first introduction to verbs of motion. They don't seem so bad yet, but then again I'm not planning on being able to produce my own Russian - just understand!
  • Swedish, Röta L2R2: I needed a break on the 4th so I skipped Röta for that day. Hirka is a bit too naive and self-righteous for me at times. Today I L2R2'd chapters 14 and 15 (40 minutes).
  • German, Assimil: lessons 39 and 40. Lesson 40 got to talking about liking things, or rather things appealing to you, gefallen. Dative! This is finally something I can hang the Russian нравиться (to like) on, since it also takes the dative. Even though I learned about нравиться back in like lesson 5 or something. Another bit about German, it could sure use a bit more variety with the case endings - it feels like everything ends with an -n at some point :lol:
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Thu Aug 08, 2019 11:05 pm

August 6th, 7th, + 8th:
  • Russian, Assimil:
    • Completed lessons 45, 46, and 47. It's only eight days in, which is premature to pat myself on the back, but regardless I am rather proud of myself to have eight consecutive days of Russian. This hasn't happened before now during my Russian studies (which started mid-May).
All that fancy list formatting just to say that.

The last few days have been rough health-wise. If it hadn't been for my self-imposed August Obligation I'd not have even done Russian. As it stands Russian was the only language I got in on the 6th and 7th so I'm glad I did that much.

I asked some friends what two languages they'd choose to learn if they could only learn two. (I had to specify two languages because, as a group, we're good at daydreaming lol.) I laid out things to consider like effort, media, personal interest, etc. and one of the friends actually formatted his answer with those criteria. So it got me to think about languages like that. Obviously I had before, but not quite in an objective way. Like: Russian - lots of effort to learn (could be point for or against tbh - more effort = different = interesting, maybe), lots of media (point in its favour), personal interest is moderate (mostly a point in its favour). Swedish - comparatively less effort, not a lot of media, my personal interest fluctuates wildly but recently it has been low.

Evaluating criteria in that way gives a clearer perspective. German, for example: not too much effort comparatively, lots of media, but my interest is kind of low. Does lots of media overcome lack of interest? Well... I'm finding out no, not really. French would be the obvious choice for me if it was all down to having loads of good media, but I feel repelled by that language despite my recent efforts to get back into it. (Nothing wrong with French! It's a great language, interesting in its own way, lots of culture and history... it just happens to do absolutely nothing for me personally and then the years of school and other politics just put that touch of "nope" on it.)

The opposite question would be: does lots of interest overcome lack of media? I thought the answer was "no" with Icelandic, but perhaps it was "no" because I wasn't as interested as I thought.

I think the only obstacle I could run into with Russian is getting scared off by difficulty. I seem to be interested, and there is a lot of media. My August challenge seems to be making me stick with it. (I know, I know! Eight days! As if that's a big deal! But I want people to understand that if this had been any other regular eight days I'd probably have taken at least 2-4 of the days "off" already :lol: )

sfuqua said something in a recent log update that I've been feeling in recent days as well. I want to discover something new with a language, I want to be taken out of my own life and get lost in some new place. This hobby is escapism for me, or at least that's what I want it to be. (I think I currently have too much focus on the struggle for it to be escapism :lol: ) I think Russian, should I see it through, is going to serve well in that endeavour.
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Tue Aug 13, 2019 2:43 am

August 9th-12th:

:x

It was going to happen at some point, and it will probably happen again, but I missed a day of Russian yesterday.

However since the 8th I've gotten Assimil lessons 48 through 50 done, and reviewed lesson 1. Technically today was the start of the "active" phase but I don't do "active" things so I'm just reviewing the "active" lesson I'm meant to be doing. Additionally, the Anki cards I attempted a few lessons back with just the Russian audio on the front went kind of badly, so I'm making them as part of this "active"/review phase instead and will ease into them.

Sadly, or not, I have done nothing else language-related. No Swedish, no German, and no "dabbling" with anything else either. I feel conflicted about that.

Twelve days of August down, hopefully I won't miss any more days!
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Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Wed Aug 14, 2019 12:13 am

August 13th:

Another day, another Assimil Russian lesson (#51 + review #2).

I’m going back on my word and taking a break for the rest of the month. I’m not feeling any of these languages and I can’t get my head straight about why I’m doing any of this. Maybe a few weeks off will clear it up.
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