Morgana's log

Continue or start your personal language log here, including logs for challenge participants
Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages: EN (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9665
x 1476

Re: Morgana changes her log title (German, Russian, Swedish)

Postby Morgana » Tue Jul 30, 2019 12:29 am

cjareck wrote:
Morgana wrote:Every line of every dialogue already goes into Anki, with audio. Also into Anki goes each exercise from each lesson (usually 5 audio and 5 fill-in-the-blanks).

I also use this method. However, with dialogues, I put the script and audio to one line and only some pictures as hints for the second line (which is in most cases the reply). Then I try to guess what should be in the second line. The idea is based on the exercise from FSI Hebrew Basic Course. I should also make the opposite - audio and script for the second line and hints to guess the first one, but I do not want to mess with the system that works very good already.
That’s definitely more ambitious than my cards! I have the Russian line and audio on the front of the card and I just try to remember what it means in English (the back of the card) :lol: I do like your approach though, it seems like it’d be perfect for trying to improve one’s conversational ability.
1 x

User avatar
cjareck
Green Belt
Posts: 476
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:11 pm
Location: Poland
Languages: Polish (N) English, German, Russian(B1?) French (B1?), Hebrew(B1?), Arabic(A2?)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8589
x 731
Contact:

Re: Morgana changes her log title (German, Russian, Swedish)

Postby cjareck » Tue Jul 30, 2019 6:06 am

I'll show you an example. There is, of course, audio played on both sides of the card, but I will skip it in this presentation ;)
ros-1.png
the front side of the card
ros-1.png (250.09 KiB) Viewed 301 times

This is the front side of the card. I'm using my photo to indicate that I should use the first person in the answer ;) Other pictures are mostly subjective associations with the words I should use in my answer to that.
ros-2.png
the back side of the card
ros-2.png (29.13 KiB) Viewed 301 times

The backside of the card is much simpler - it plays audio and displays the answer. There is also the button "pokaż tłumaczenie" ("show the translation") that, after being clicked, shows the translation of the phrase. It is also in the front of the card but was below what I cut from the screenshot.
6 x
Please feel free to correct me in any language
FSI Hebrew Basic Course
: 39 / 40

Avigdor Kahalani, עז 77 (Heigths of Courage)
: 17 / 200


DLI MSA Basic Course
: 11 / 140
Polish course Arabic for beginners
: 3 / 40

Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages: EN (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9665
x 1476

Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Thu Aug 01, 2019 1:38 am

subtly removes mention of languages from log title


Anyone else apply the concept of "spoiler alert" to their languages? Going step-by-step through learning a language can be quite interesting and suspenseful, and then I will (quite knowingly on my behalf) read logs of fellow learners of my TLs and get spoiled by things I don't know yet :lol: Obviously I'm joking, no one should hold back in what they write of their language experience! It's just something I didn't experience while learning Swedish (or Icelandic) but now I run into it a little bit with Russian and German. Because obviously there are a ton more people learning those languages than were/are learning Swedish (and/or Icelandic)! In fact about a month or so back I did a text search on the first 20 pages of logs (sorted by most recent post) and there were only three logs that explicitly listed Swedish as a target language, and of them none of those posters were as active as I am on the site. Also, none of those learners had Swedish as their primary or main target language. Outside of that, there was one learner whom I knew was learning Swedish as their main TL but didn't list it in the log title, but this person lives in Sweden. Knowing there were so few people learning Swedish as a main TL without living there gave me pause... but maybe that's something I can talk about later (or not!).

Alright let's talk about Russian. Maybe I should make a list of some of the smaller things happening lately:
  • Cyrillic is only just starting to seem the slightest bit easier to read. This is encouraging.
  • Года vs. лет. Ah, I think I've had my first taste of the funniness with the way things are counted (numbers 2-4 vs. the other plural numbers).
  • Russian seems to use verbs very differently to English at times. I don't have specific examples but it was just a thought that occurred to me today while doing a lesson.
As of today I have 39 lessons of Assimil Russian done, and have tracked 45 hours and 26 minutes total since May 16. (That makes an average of 35 minutes/day.)

Overall I feel less Russian-specific anxiety these last few days, which is good for my continued Russian learning lol.

Moving on to German, unfortunately my enthusiasm is starting to wane. I think the novelty of the excellent voice acting of the Assimil German course is wearing off. They're still good, it's just no longer carrying as much of the language for me as it used to. There are a lot of similarities with Swedish, more than with English I'd say at this stage. I have enjoyed the transparency but at the same time that transparency can feel boring, like I am not discovering anything new.

As of today I've got 36 lessons completed of Assimil German, and my time tracking says there are 21 hours and 9 minutes total into this language since June 1. (Average = 21 minutes/day.)

A general comment on Assimil, not specific to either course: sometimes some of the English translations of the target language are not as idiomatic as they could be. Sometimes, a word-for-word translation of the TL is more idiomatic than the English Assimil came up with! Maybe it has to do with me being Canadian (I think Assimil targets a British audience?). It's not really a problem but it does cause me to pause to try to think of why they phrased it the way they did when there was a more natural-sounding way to say it.

A comment on Assimil Russian: I am convinced at least three of the voice actors had colds by lesson 36 or 37. I am even convinced I can tell which one of them had it first and thus spread it to the others :lol:

I would move next to commenting about Swedish but there is nothing new to report since my last update.

As a way to boost my productivity, I was thinking of doing a challenge during August where I'd commit to doing one Assimil Russian lesson per day = 31 lessons total by the end of the month. I'd get a huge jump in progress through the course, nearly doubling what I've spent 2.5 months completing to date! I was also thinking to do daily updates to shame myself into making sure I get the lessons done :)

Assimil Russian today = 39 lessons
Target for end-of-day August 31 = 70 lessons

At any time I might drop German. If I feel motivated I will keep the same pace as Russian, but if my interest doesn’t pick up again I am going to shelve it for a while.

Lastly, I'm not sure what to do about Swedish. It's clear I've lost all of the interest and joy I had for/with this language. (At least for now/for lately.) Perhaps it's an idea to take a longer break, or perhaps I should add it to the August challenge and get through that Röta L2R2. I've got 78 minutes done of 1073, and 995/31 is just over 30 minutes/day. I don't think I could set a lower bar than that.

I do want to get my languages down to just two overall, for several reasons. First, I'm not a language learner. This stuff sucks. I'm really lazy and averse to effort. Second, I don't like having all my free time booked up with to-dos. I like doing nothing sometimes, or doing something unplanned. If I have the 2-4 hours I have in the evenings booked up with target language tasks, I start to feel trapped. I had hoped that feeling would change when I got to enjoying native materials, for example where my reading is at with Swedish, but it still feels like an obligation and work rather than a leisure activity. So, for now, I want to reduce that stuff until such a time when maybe TL activities feel like leisure, if they ever do. Third, I currently harbour some doubt that I will ever actually reach the level I want in any TL. I think the more TLs I pick up, the worse the feeling gets, and rightfully so if it's splitting my time into smaller pieces for each language! So, all together, fewer is better for me right now based on what I want, my personality, whatever. Kind of like Lawyer&Mom says in her log title, "less is more."

One thing I'm trying in order to evaluate which languages I should pick, is what reasons I have (or make) for learning each. It's a bit tricky since I don't have any need to learn any, and outside of Nordic languages (specifically Icelandic), I didn't have any "organic" desires to learn any. Of course, having learned Swedish, and for a while Icelandic, has given me a taste of what small and small-medium languages can offer. So even though my actual interests might lie in certain areas, the options with those languages are more limited than what my personality prefers to tolerate 8-) It is what it is. I'm trying to consider everything: my "organic" interest, interest I can cultivate, what I'm looking for or hoping to get out of a language, the size of the language, etc. It's a challenge.

Oh! Last thing. I'm not going to track hours during August. AndyMeg's ALG post stays in the back of my head and that one part of it is something I can do immediately and without any work lol.

Here's to August going by even faster than July did! (I hate summer!! :lol: )
10 x

Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages: EN (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9665
x 1476

Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Fri Aug 02, 2019 2:51 am

WARNING: Post contains spoilers! (Of a language course, and of a book originally in Norwegian that probably none of you will read anyway but YOU WERE WARNED!)


Day 1 of my little August “challenge” and I haven’t failed yet!

What I got done earlier this evening:
  • Russian, Assimil:
    • 40th lesson.
    • Classic Assimil humour: «Кем работает ваш жених?» (“What does your fiancé do?”) «Он писатель.» (“He’s a writer.”) «Отлично! Подарите ему вот эту корзину для мусора!» (“Perfect! Give him this wastepaper basket!”)
    • More classic Assimil humour from note 6 (p183-184): “To ask what kind of work someone does in Russian, you ask “who do you work as?”, using the verb работать, to work, and the instrumental case of кто, who, to express the idea of “as who”: кем. In English, this idea is commonly expressed by What does someone do? The instrumental case of что, what, is чем. Not hard, is it?” (bolding mine)
  • Swedish, L2R2 Röta:
    • Chapters 6 and 7, 40:02 minutes. From 7% to 11% is about 20 pages of the book. My reading speed without the audiobook is faster than this, but I need something to listen to. I’m through 1 hour and 58 minutes of the audiobook now, though. Just 15 hours and 55 minutes to go! :|
    • This book is the second in a series of three books titled Korpringarna = The Ravens. The protagonist, Hirka, is a 16-year-old girl from Ymslanden, ie. not earth. Due to events in book 1 she travels between worlds to earth and is now hanging out somewhere in the UK I think (I forget already) in a church. Anyway, she has a pet/friend raven, named Kuro. Kuro has spent the last 2-3 chapters being sick. Towards the end of chapter 7, Kuro's illness takes a turn for the worse and a man bursts out of the raven's chest, Alien-style. The chapter ends off with Hirka on the ground, devastated and afraid after just witnessing the grotesque transformation of her sidekick, when the man grabs her wrist and then basically passes out.
  • German, Assimil:
    • 37th lesson.
    • Dative personal pronouns flying all over the place.
    • The handsome, rich, a-little-old-but-not-too-ugly guy was her friend's dad! What a knee-slapper.


It’s not so much fun doing a language one is not that interested in anymore. It reminds me of subjects I hated in school. Of course, there one had no choice (unless one wanted to fail the course). But I control my free time... I’ll see how long I stick it out. I know sometimes these are just “funks” one passes through, so I’m not calling it yet.
8 x

User avatar
Elsa Maria
Green Belt
Posts: 329
Joined: Thu Oct 15, 2015 5:20 am
Location: USA
Languages: English (N), Danish (intermediate). Various stages of beginner: Dutch, Latin, Spanish, and Polish
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6009
x 612

Re: Morgana's log

Postby Elsa Maria » Fri Aug 02, 2019 5:45 pm

I have not started the Assimil Dutch, by the way. I've been distracted by Spanish and by being on holiday.

Several of us read Odinsbarn a few years ago. I must have liked it better than you did, because I would wanted to read the trilogy. But I never did. Now I'd have to go back and reread Odinsbarn (in Danish) before I could read Råta, and I am not sure I really want to invest in that effort.

Do you generally like YA Fantasy? I am not a huge YA fan, but I like some of it.
1 x
Corrections are always welcome.

User avatar
tiia
Green Belt
Posts: 479
Joined: Tue Mar 15, 2016 11:52 pm
Location: Finland
Languages: German (N), English (?), Finnish (~B2), Spanish (B1), Swedish (A1?)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?t=2374
x 737

Re: Morgana's log

Postby tiia » Fri Aug 02, 2019 6:11 pm

Morgana wrote:subtly removes mention of languages from log title

Makes sense, when you're changing them constantly. However, I noticed that adding the target languages to the log title increased the number of readers.


Morgana wrote:Anyone else apply the concept of "spoiler alert" to their languages? Going step-by-step through learning a language can be quite interesting and suspenseful, and then I will (quite knowingly on my behalf) read logs of fellow learners of my TLs and get spoiled by things I don't know yet :lol: Obviously I'm joking, no one should hold back in what they write of their language experience! It's just something I didn't experience while learning Swedish (or Icelandic) but now I run into it a little bit with Russian and German.

I remember some discussion about the sin/sina thingy, which was a bit ahead for me (like 2-3 chapters in Rivstart). But it definitely works better with languages you don't know that well yet.

Morgana wrote:Because obviously there are a ton more people learning those languages than were/are learning Swedish (and/or Icelandic)! In fact about a month or so back I did a text search on the first 20 pages of logs (sorted by most recent post) and there were only three logs that explicitly listed Swedish as a target language, and of them none of those posters were as active as I am on the site. Also, none of those learners had Swedish as their primary or main target language. Outside of that, there was one learner whom I knew was learning Swedish as their main TL but didn't list it in the log title, but this person lives in Sweden. Knowing there were so few people learning Swedish as a main TL without living there gave me pause... but maybe that's something I can talk about later (or not!).

You for sure found my log in that search. :D I haven't really done anything for a while and it doesn't feel good to just write, that I haven't really done anything, except for living my life, speak Spanish every now and then at the language cafe and notice when people speak Swedish on the streets... Oh and I once tried Swedish at the language cafe. But my Swedish was horrible. I probably will take another course again, just to proceed at least in any way.
I did similar searches for Finnish some time ago, you don't get that many results either. But it's probably more than Swedish due to the "Finnish with extra Mühe" project. Another issue is, that, most learners never got as far as I did. (I know one exception here?). Especially I have never read of any learner in this forum who actually worked in Finnish. (Anyway, I now such people in real life here.) I don't know whether you may have a similar problem with Swedish. (?)

Morgana wrote:There are a lot of similarities with Swedish, more than with English I'd say at this stage. I have enjoyed the transparency but at the same time that transparency can feel boring, like I am not discovering anything new.

Let's say it from my point of view: there's no language that felt so easy to learn as Swedish. It's extremely close to German, and if I don't know a word through German, it's likely I know it through English or Finnish (because Finnish has quite an amount of Swedish loan words.) Even the grammatical forms... like irregular plurals are similar in German (such as land, länder). Honestly, when visiting Sweden without knowing Swedish at all, there is a good chance of guessing the meaning, if it's written.
May German feel as a relaxing walk through a park as Swedish feels for me.
At least there is plenty of media in German available, so that you could just make use of the language.


Btw. I'm still reading book three of the Ravenring-trilogy. I stopped last year when I moved to Finland, but recently reread one chapter and continued with one more. So I see those "spoilers" of the second book more as a nice reminder what has happend before. :)
2 x
Corrections for entries written in Finnish, Spanish or Swedish are welcome.
Project 30before30: 22 / 30

Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 659
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages: EN (N)
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=9665
x 1476

Re: Morgana's log

Postby Morgana » Sat Aug 03, 2019 2:57 am

Elsa Maria wrote:I have not started the Assimil Dutch, by the way. I've been distracted by Spanish and by being on holiday.
Hahaha no pressure! I hope I didn't make you feel like I was waiting on you. My Dutch fascination wasn't too serious, in any case. I hope your holiday has been nice!

Elsa Maria wrote:Several of us read Odinsbarn a few years ago. I must have liked it better than you did, because I would wanted to read the trilogy. But I never did. Now I'd have to go back and reread Odinsbarn (in Danish) before I could read Råta, and I am not sure I really want to invest in that effort. Do you generally like YA Fantasy? I am not a huge YA fan, but I like some of it.
I remember! I liked Odinsbarn fine, I don't think I said I didn't like it? But it's not my favourite YA or anything. I am only reading the trilogy because it's in Swedish, if I'm honest.

Yes, I like YA fantasy, but it can be formulaic if I read too much of it in a short period of time. I suppose that goes for all genres and mediums, though!


tiia wrote:
Morgana wrote:subtly removes mention of languages from log title

Makes sense, when you're changing them constantly.
Shhhhhh, you were supposed to go along with pretending you didn't notice :lol:

tiia wrote:However, I noticed that adding the target languages to the log title increased the number of readers.
Indeed. Though, one small correction: it was adding popular target languages to the log title that increased the views. I had had Swedish, and then also Icelandic, as part of my log title for a long time.

tiia wrote:
Morgana wrote:Because obviously there are a ton more people learning those languages than were/are learning Swedish (and/or Icelandic)! In fact about a month or so back I did a text search on the first 20 pages of logs (sorted by most recent post) and there were only three logs that explicitly listed Swedish as a target language, and of them none of those posters were as active as I am on the site. Also, none of those learners had Swedish as their primary or main target language. Outside of that, there was one learner whom I knew was learning Swedish as their main TL but didn't list it in the log title, but this person lives in Sweden. Knowing there were so few people learning Swedish as a main TL without living there gave me pause... but maybe that's something I can talk about later (or not!).

You for sure found my log in that search. :D I haven't really done anything for a while and it doesn't feel good to just write, that I haven't really done anything, except for living my life, speak Spanish every now and then at the language cafe and notice when people speak Swedish on the streets... Oh and I once tried Swedish at the language cafe. But my Swedish was horrible. I probably will take another course again, just to proceed at least in any way.
I did similar searches for Finnish some time ago, you don't get that many results either. But it's probably more than Swedish due to the "Finnish with extra Mühe" project. Another issue is, that, most learners never got as far as I did. (I know one exception here?). Especially I have never read of any learner in this forum who actually worked in Finnish. (Anyway, I now such people in real life here.) I don't know whether you may have a similar problem with Swedish. (?)
My purpose in writing the part you quoted here was to express what most language learners are doing and why it makes sense vs. what I have done. Let's consider your case, though: you live in Finland now. I assume at least some of the duration of your learning had been spent with the hope or intent to migrate.

And now generally: most people who have a longterm primary focus on a small(-ish) language are probably planning to use that language at some point because of loved ones, a career, relocation, etc. So it makes sense to learn them. For someone not doing those things it maybe isn't such a great plan. Unless one just really loves the language at all costs. I'm not judging anybody's reasons for learning, just pointing out what tends to be the case with the majority of language learners. They go for big languages, not small ones.

Searching back through the logs like that helped me see I wasn't wrong for becoming a bit disillusioned with Swedish.

tiia wrote:
Morgana wrote:There are a lot of similarities with Swedish, more than with English I'd say at this stage. I have enjoyed the transparency but at the same time that transparency can feel boring, like I am not discovering anything new.

Let's say it from my point of view: there's no language that felt so easy to learn as Swedish. It's extremely close to German, and if I don't know a word through German, it's likely I know it through English or Finnish (because Finnish has quite an amount of Swedish loan words.) Even the grammatical forms... like irregular plurals are similar in German (such as land, länder). Honestly, when visiting Sweden without knowing Swedish at all, there is a good chance of guessing the meaning, if it's written.
Thank you, I am glad to hear from a German speaker about what Swedish feels like for her! I would say the same about Swedish ("there's no language that felt so easy to learn as Swedish") as an English speaker, even though Swedish is not nearly as similar to English as it is to German. Swedish has obviously felt way easier to me than German. Swedish also felt easier than learning French.




------------




Two for two for my August challenge. Same warning about spoilers I guess.

The day that was August 2nd:
  • Russian, Assimil:
    • 41st lesson.
    • Now we’re learning to tell time! Oh my this seems so different from English. Genitives, ordinal numerals, ugh and Russian does that "half-six" thing like the Brits... I always have to do the math when I hear "half-four" or "half-eleven" like why is it so hard to just say "ten-thirty?!" I wanted the time, not a math problem! :lol: :lol:
    • A lot of this lesson was going over my head. Like most of Russian. But that's ok, because I'm just learning what each line means and eventually this will all magically make sense.
    • My negligibly improved ability at reading Cyrillic diminishes completely when the word has more than like 6 letters 8-)
    • I tried out a new Note type for Anki cards tonight in that I put only audio on the front and then everything (L2 text, L1 translation, any extra notes) on the back. It doubled the time it took me to get through the cards. That's a "yikes" and a "I probably need this" all rolled into one.
  • Swedish, Röta L2R2:
    • Chapters 8-10, 37:37. Total time 2 hours 35 minutes. 11% > 14% = about 15 pages.
    • Should I do these plot summaries? I'm not sure I should keep doing them.
    • Chapter 8 sees our hero saving the man that burst out of her pet raven’s chest last chapter with some herbal tea from Ymslanden. Oh, btw this dude’s not really a man but a "blind” (say it like you would in Swedish or it's just not as cool), or a “nábyrn,” which is really like some kind of vampire, but I guess the universe this book takes place in doesn’t use that word.
    • In chapter 9 we meet Graal for the first time. He’s one of these nábyrns. A bad one. (They were all bad before, but now Hirka’s helping one of them so…) We find out Graal is looking for Hirka and her raven. Graal clearly doesn't know what happened to the raven yet.
    • Chapter 10 returns us to Ymslanden and Rime, Hirka’s love interest and basically the boy-king of the realm. The politics are kind of complicated but in the first book Rime’s grandma, who was one of the most powerful players on the council, was murdered by a power-hungry half-nábyrn named Urd. (Urd was killed in the events during the end of book 1.) Rime subsequently inherited grandma’s seat at the council. Because Rime had spent the last 3 years becoming a trained assassin, and of course becoming a much better assassin than all of the other assassins ever to have lived, he’s basically now the most powerful dude in Ymslanden. At 18 years of age. Anyway, right now Rime has a loooooooooong conversation with the rock sculptor (I think? I forget) and occasionally lucid wiseman Hlosnian about raven blood, and … well to be honest you should read the first book. Way too much ground to cover.


The only German I did today was Anki reviewing, because I'm tired!
5 x

aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 701
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Location: Russia
Languages: Russian (N)
English (?)
Italian (beginner)
German (false beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6724
x 1222

Re: Morgana's log

Postby aaleks » Sat Aug 03, 2019 10:45 am

Morgana wrote:
    • 41st lesson.
    • Now we’re learning to tell time! Oh my this seems so different from English. Genitives, ordinal numerals, ugh and Russian does that "half-six" thing like the Brits... I always have to do the math when I hear "half-four" or "half-eleven" like why is it so hard to just say "ten-thirty?!" I wanted the time, not a math problem! :lol: :lol:


I don't like those "half-six" etc. either :) . And I have to the math too to not confuse 5:30 with 6:30.
1 x

User avatar
jeff_lindqvist
Black Belt - 1st Dan
Posts: 1752
Joined: Sun Aug 16, 2015 9:52 pm
Languages: sv, en
de, es
ga, eo
---
fi, yue, ro, tp, cy, kw, pt, sk
Language Log: viewtopic.php?f=15&t=2773
x 3580

Re: Morgana's log

Postby jeff_lindqvist » Sat Aug 03, 2019 11:14 am

We have the same system in the Scandinavian languages, so it will help you since you're into Swedish as well. I can agree that the numbers 10:30 reads most easily as "ten thirty", but if you're looking at a clock face, it's just as logical to view as something related to eleven (and it's getting even closer to eleven while you're looking at it...). Also German has it. Halb elf is half an hour before eleven, i.e. 10:30. We look into the future. :)
4 x
Leabhair/Greannáin léite as Gaeilge: 9 / 18
Ar an seastán oíche: Oileán an Órchiste
Duolingo - finished trees: sp/ga/de/fr/pt/it
Finnish with extra pain : 100 / 100

Llorg Blog - Wiki

aaleks
Blue Belt
Posts: 701
Joined: Thu Apr 13, 2017 7:04 pm
Location: Russia
Languages: Russian (N)
English (?)
Italian (beginner)
German (false beginner)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=6724
x 1222

Re: Morgana's log

Postby aaleks » Sat Aug 03, 2019 12:46 pm

jeff_lindqvist wrote:Also German has it. Halb elf is half an hour before eleven

German also has such a mind blowing thing like Es ist ein Viertel 15 - 14:15 or Es ist drei Viertel 15 - 14:45 ;) (it's from the notes I made when I was trying to learn German on my own in the early 2000's). The fact that Russian has it too doesn't make things easier for me :) .
2 x


Return to “Language logs”

Who is online

Users browsing this forum: No registered users and 2 guests