Morgana's log

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Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages:
x 1817

Postby Morgana » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:36 am

Last edited by Morgana on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 pm, edited 4 times in total.
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Brun Ugle
Black Belt - 2nd Dan
Posts: 2219
Joined: Mon Jul 27, 2015 12:48 pm
Location: Steinkjer, Norway
Languages: English (N), Norwegian (~C1/C2), Spanish (B1/B2), German (A2/B1?), Japanese (very rusty)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... 15&t=11484
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby Brun Ugle » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:09 am

I think the difference between reading L1 in LR and reading L1 subtitles is that you get into a meditative flow stay in LR that’s much harder to find with TV. It’s hard to find at first with LR too and many people find themselves reading ahead at first, but after a while, you learn to just listen and let your eyes skim along taking in information without really reading in the usual sense. There is no subvocalization, for example, and you’re not trying to read every word so much as just pick up the bits you are missing from the audio.

I think there are a couple of reasons why this works in LR and not so much with subs. First of all, there is the flow of the audio. It’s usually just one person reading to you at a fairly steady pace. In TV, there are many people and the pace of the audio is not steady. There is action in between bursts of dialogue. There are also sound effects and often the dialogue can be unclear in places. This makes the flow state harder to achieve. The second reason it works better with LR is that to do LR properly, you have to already have read the book at least once and, preferably, several times. (It should be a book you know well.) This means that there is no excitement to find out what’s happening, which might pull your attention away from the audio and into the L1 text. It also makes it easier to ‘read without reading’. You aren’t using the L1 to find out what’s going on since you already know that. You are just using it as a crutch to keep track of where you are in the story and to remind yourself of details that you might have forgotten. Again, this means it’s easier to avoid getting sucked into reading losing track of the audio.
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StringerBell
Blue Belt
Posts: 927
Joined: Mon Jul 23, 2018 3:30 am
Languages: English (n)
Italian: ~ C1 reading/listening and ? speaking
Polish : on hiatus
Latin: beginner
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby StringerBell » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:20 pm

Netflix has these shows - do you know about them? I saw them on this list and noticed they weren't on your watched list...because I thought it would be a good use of my time to look up Swedish shows for some apparent reason. :lol:

Fallet | The Case
Welcome to Sweden (bilingual Swedish/English show)
Vår tid är nu | The Restaurant
Tjockare än vatten | Thicker than water
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Italian: Read 5,000 pages : 976 / 5000
Italian: Write 50,000 words : 3080 / 50000
Polish: Read 5,000 pages : 59 / 5000
Season 4 Lucifer Italian transcripts I created: https://learnanylanguage.fandom.com/wik ... ranscripts

Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages:
x 1817

Postby Morgana » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:02 pm

Last edited by Morgana on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:39 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages:
x 1817

Postby Morgana » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:17 am

Last edited by Morgana on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 2 times in total.
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cjareck
Blue Belt
Posts: 604
Joined: Tue Apr 25, 2017 6:11 pm
Location: Poland
Languages: Polish (N) English, German, Russian(B1?) French (B1?), Hebrew(B1?), Arabic(A2?)
Language Log: https://forum.language-learners.org/vie ... =15&t=8589
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby cjareck » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:38 am

Morgana wrote:Other: I have started work on the intro to Colloquial Polish, ie. the pronunciation lol. I can't tell the difference between most of the fricatives :lol: I'll try to convince myself to put some effort into that. I'm not starting Polish, btw. This is I don't even know what. I guess sometimes I wish Russian had a more phonemic orthography.

I don't know English terms connected to phonetics, but maybe you find that interesting (No, not Brzęczyszczykiewicz again ;)

What is interesting in the audio is the fact that the reader either comes from "kresy" eastern interwar period Poland or he mimics such pronunciation. The difference is in "ł" which sounds like "l".
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Please feel free to correct me in any language

Avigdor Kahalani, עז 77 (Heigths of Courage)
: 18 / 200


Assimil Chinese
: 16 / 200


DLI MSA Basic Course
: 12 / 140
Polish course Arabic for beginners
: 4 / 40

Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages:
x 1817

Postby Morgana » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:33 pm

Last edited by Morgana on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages:
x 1817

Postby Morgana » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:38 pm

Last edited by Morgana on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:38 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Morgana
Blue Belt
Posts: 728
Joined: Tue Jun 06, 2017 6:02 pm
Languages:
x 1817

Postby Morgana » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:08 am

Last edited by Morgana on Mon Nov 25, 2019 8:40 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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User avatar
Radioclare
Brown Belt
Posts: 1181
Joined: Sat Jul 18, 2015 12:59 pm
Location: England
Languages: Speaks: English (N), Esperanto, German, Croatian
Learns: Russian
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (German, Russian, Swedish)

Postby Radioclare » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:51 am

Morgana wrote:The foreign script doesn't do me any favours. I know, this is going to turn into an immature rant along the lines of "wah it difficult sob" so you are now warned. Plus the stress/vowel reduction blahblah. I recall the thread on here where a study found Danish children had a smaller vocabulary by a certain age compared to children from the other Scandinavian countries. This difference was attributed to the poor sound-spelling correspondence of the orthography. I am sure results like that can extrapolate to other languages like English and Russian.

Learning a new alphabet absolutely adds to the difficulty of learning a language. You absolutely can memorize the Russian alphabet in a day or two but that is a useless trick that does not translate to being able to read. I probably won't feel comfortable with Cyrillic before the Assimil course is done and probably not for at least several hundred pages of whatever I continue to read afterwards. I wish I could have found people complaining about this in literally any of the places I went looking prior to starting Russian. I would feel better. Despite all of the other difficulties Russian possesses, the alphabet and the stress are the only unenjoyable parts for me.


I had exactly the same experience with the alphabet when I started learning. I was so frustrated because it feels like the internet is full of websites/polyglots telling you that you can learn the Cyrillic alphabet in X amount of time and implying that it's really not a big deal, but like you I found that there was a huge jump between memorising individual letters and actually being able to read. There are definitely some log posts somewhere which involve me ranting about this, but it may be as far back as 2014/15 so they're probably lost in the depths of the old forum.

I first started learning Serbian Cyrillic which I think exacerbated the problem, because I could already read Serbian to a reasonable level in Latin script (I'd been studying Croatian for 2 - 3 years at this point) so I felt like, once I'd memorised the alphabet, I ought to be able to read Serbian in Cyrillic equally well. Instead I found that I couldn't recognise a single word on sight, and had to sound out every word letter by letter like a 5-year old learning to read. Someone wise did comment in my log at the time to point out that I ought to find this easier with Russian, because in Serbian I had learned the vocabulary in Latin so I hadn't learned to recognise the shape of the words in Cyrillic, whereas if I learned Russian I would learn the vocabulary in Cyrillic from the start and so be better able to recognise words.

In fairness to that person (can't remember who it was!) they were right and I have found in a bit easier in Russian. But I have still found the alphabet a huge initial barrier to overcome and I think it's partly to blame for why I've had so many failed attempts at learning Russian over the years. I've had to invest a lot of time up front in learning to type and handwrite in Cyrillic, because I found I'm just incapable of learning anything in a language if I can't type or write. And as someone who normally reads really fast, learning to read in Russian has been really painful. I've stumbled my way through a handful of children's books and I think I've progressed from reading like a 5-year old to reading like a 7-year old, but it's still such hard work :lol:

The stress is also a big deal for me and probably the other reason why I've failed to learn Russian so many times, because it makes me really stressed (haha!) to look at a word and not have a clue how to pronounce it. All the other languages I've learned have been much simpler in this respect; Esperanto is obviously completely phonetic and BCMS works on the principle of "write as you speak and read as it is written", which I think is an excellent idea :D I was always quite indifferent about the letter "o" before I started learning Russian and now I hate it with a vengeance :lol:

The only way I feel I'm making progress with Russian is by using Memrise. I find SRS deathly dull but it's good because a) it makes me spell words out, and I think the better I get at spelling them, the easier they are to read and b) I add audio from Forvo for every word I learn, to make sure I never learn a new word without knowing how it sounds. Adding the audio is time-consuming and boring, but I'm trying to convince myself that this is just like having to memorise the gender of every word I learned in German.

I will also admit some recent discussions have made me consider why I am doing a category IV language at all when I don't find language learning particularly enjoyable and I could be doing another category I/II instead :lol:


I'm so glad to find out that I'm not the only person here who doesn't find language learning particularly enjoyable :lol:
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