Morgana's log

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Morgana
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby Morgana » Mon Jul 01, 2019 4:36 am

June's finally done!


Swedish:
During June, I spent 31 hours and 15 minutes on Swedish. 19 hours and 58 minutes of that were listening (mostly television), the rest was reading.

I have read 70% of Cirkeln, or 354 pages (of 505). I've listened to 46 chapters in total of the audiobook for Röta. I still have 24 chapters left and it will probably take me at least another couple months to get through those :lol:

As for tv, I am trying out a trial subscription to MHZ Choice. It is likely to be my primary means of consuming Swedish series. I am currently halfway through season six of Morden i Sandhamn.

By the way here's a list of all the series I've watched during the last 6-7 months:
  • Det som göms i snö - This was great. Easily top five Swedish series I've seen.
  • Springfloden - First season felt like a CBC drama, second season was better. (It’s on MHZ Choice.)
  • Äkta människor - This show was also great but it feels like they had no idea what to do with the second season.
  • Bron - The best Swedish show of all-time (though technically it was half in Danish).
  • Kungamordet - It was kind of like a miniseries. I couldn't be bothered finishing it.
  • Bonusfamiljen - This one’s on Netflix, which is why I've watched it 2-3 times depending on the season. It is not at all my favourite show but it has grown on me.
  • Eagles - :roll:
  • Gentleman & Gangsters - It's on Netflix. I've watched four or five episodes. It is dreadfully boring.
  • Helt Perfekt - Awful awful awful I am not into this kind of stupid, raunchy, gross-out humour.
  • Störst av allt - Another one on Netflix and it was good but only six episodes!
  • Solsidan - A comedy, it was alright. At 5 seasons though, it’s one of the longest-running Swedish series that I know about.
  • Jägarna - Loved it, but only 6 episodes.
  • Midnattssol - This was hardly in Swedish :lol: It was a joint series between Sweden and France so it was about 1/4 Swedish, 1/5 French and the rest was English with a bit of Sami I think? It was mostly good.
  • Vem bor här? - This has been a staple in my tv-watching every spring but this year since I had better options I only made it through two or three episodes... sorry Malin :(
  • Tror du jag ljuger? - I watched the entire 2019 season despite not really being into reality shows/game shows/celebrity game shows. It was pretty funny at times.
  • Maria Wern - Bleh :| This one also reminded me of watching a CBC show. (I don't like CBC shows, can you tell??)
  • Morden i Sandhamn - Not amazing but still quite good and with six seasons?!?! Sure the seasons are only 2 hours long (until season 6 = 6 hours long) but still, the whole thing is 16 hours which is not bad for a Swedish series.
The one problem with MHZ Choice is that the English subtitles can't be turned off. I had gotten used to watching with Swedish subtitles before this, and was just starting to be braver and go without subtitles more regularly. Despite having two really good days of listening last week, it's clear it's not my "normal." I am covering the English subtitles with a piece of paper and when I feel I've missed too much of something I skip back and let myself read.

Random thought: if the most useful part of Listening-Reading is the L2R1 phase, then shouldn't the equivalent "most useful" version of tv watching be using NL subs while listening to the TL? And yet, isn't there information suggesting the best way to learn while watching foreign language tv is L2R2?? Anyway. Food for thought there.


Russian:
I spent 13 hours and 37 minutes with Russian this month, tv watching excluded. I only watched the one season of Sparta/Sпарта anyway. I won't count any listening time until I'm done at least one course.

I am done 23 lessons of Assimil Russian. Lesson 22 did the super cool thing of springing all the days of the week on me.

I had extra time today so I got a start on the RT course. Miracle of miracles the registration actually worked, so I can actually login and save my progress on there! How useful. I did lesson 1 and most of lesson 2 since they were easy-peasy after the 23 Assimil lessons. It's kinda nice to do something easy-peasy now and then so that you realize you have indeed made progress.


...other:
You knew this was coming didn't you?? :D I am barely still at German. I found myself looking at its phonology page on Wikipedia and admiring how they share almost all their vowels with Swedish (save a couple, including /ʉː/ which is one of my faves tbh), and the consonants are also surprisingly straightforward for an English speaker. Well, mostly. I might even go so far as to say German consonants are easier than Swedish consonants. But anyway that's subjective. 24 Assimil lessons done with German, in any case. I won't quote time spent since I am not sure how long German will stick around.


I hope I can be this determined during July...
Last edited by Morgana on Wed Jul 03, 2019 5:36 am, edited 3 times in total.
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby Brun Ugle » Mon Jul 01, 2019 6:09 am

I think the difference between reading L1 in LR and reading L1 subtitles is that you get into a meditative flow stay in LR that’s much harder to find with TV. It’s hard to find at first with LR too and many people find themselves reading ahead at first, but after a while, you learn to just listen and let your eyes skim along taking in information without really reading in the usual sense. There is no subvocalization, for example, and you’re not trying to read every word so much as just pick up the bits you are missing from the audio.

I think there are a couple of reasons why this works in LR and not so much with subs. First of all, there is the flow of the audio. It’s usually just one person reading to you at a fairly steady pace. In TV, there are many people and the pace of the audio is not steady. There is action in between bursts of dialogue. There are also sound effects and often the dialogue can be unclear in places. This makes the flow state harder to achieve. The second reason it works better with LR is that to do LR properly, you have to already have read the book at least once and, preferably, several times. (It should be a book you know well.) This means that there is no excitement to find out what’s happening, which might pull your attention away from the audio and into the L1 text. It also makes it easier to ‘read without reading’. You aren’t using the L1 to find out what’s going on since you already know that. You are just using it as a crutch to keep track of where you are in the story and to remind yourself of details that you might have forgotten. Again, this means it’s easier to avoid getting sucked into reading losing track of the audio.
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby StringerBell » Mon Jul 01, 2019 3:20 pm

Netflix has these shows - do you know about them? I saw them on this list and noticed they weren't on your watched list...because I thought it would be a good use of my time to look up Swedish shows for some apparent reason. :lol:

Fallet | The Case
Welcome to Sweden (bilingual Swedish/English show)
Vår tid är nu | The Restaurant
Tjockare än vatten | Thicker than water
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby Morgana » Mon Jul 01, 2019 9:02 pm

Brun Ugle wrote:I think the difference between reading L1 in LR and reading L1 subtitles is that you get into a meditative flow stay in LR that’s much harder to find with TV. It’s hard to find at first with LR too and many people find themselves reading ahead at first, but after a while, you learn to just listen and let your eyes skim along taking in information without really reading in the usual sense. There is no subvocalization, for example, and you’re not trying to read every word so much as just pick up the bits you are missing from the audio.

I think there are a couple of reasons why this works in LR and not so much with subs. First of all, there is the flow of the audio. It’s usually just one person reading to you at a fairly steady pace. In TV, there are many people and the pace of the audio is not steady. There is action in between bursts of dialogue. There are also sound effects and often the dialogue can be unclear in places. This makes the flow state harder to achieve. The second reason it works better with LR is that to do LR properly, you have to already have read the book at least once and, preferably, several times. (It should be a book you know well.) This means that there is no excitement to find out what’s happening, which might pull your attention away from the audio and into the L1 text. It also makes it easier to ‘read without reading’. You aren’t using the L1 to find out what’s going on since you already know that. You are just using it as a crutch to keep track of where you are in the story and to remind yourself of details that you might have forgotten. Again, this means it’s easier to avoid getting sucked into reading losing track of the audio.
Thank you for this awesome reply, Brun Ugle. I hadn't really thought about the density of information between an audiobook vs. tv, and of course overlooked all the other stuff tv has going on that can drag you out of a near-singular focus.

That alleged "meditative flow state" never happened for me when I tried doing LR, but I could never do LR for longer than an hour at a time. Even getting one hour at a time was a rarity because it felt too draining long before that point. I suppose it must work for some people, but I admit I'm highly skeptical of the method and the claims surrounding it. I don't think I have ever heard of a single language learner who was able to replicate the method as the originator described? 10+ hour days or whatever for weeks at a time... I don't think it's ever happened. If it has, and it was such a success for whoever did it, I'm surprised we haven't heard about it.


StringerBell wrote:Netflix has these shows - do you know about them? I saw them on this list and noticed they weren't on your watched list...because I thought it would be a good use of my time to look up Swedish shows for some apparent reason. :lol:

Fallet | The Case
Welcome to Sweden (bilingual Swedish/English show)
Vår tid är nu | The Restaurant
Tjockare än vatten | Thicker than water

Thank you! That's so thoughtful of you to have my back with the Swedish tv :D Fallet is the only one of those that is on Netflix Canada. I have checked it out but it had a lot of English (and tbh it's not my kind of comedy). As for the other three: I did watch Welcome to Sweden years ago. It's about this American guy, Amy Poehler's brother and based on his actual life iirc, trying to fit in in Sweden/with his Swedish in-laws and the culture shock/clash I guess. I thought it was a good show, but mostly English. Tjockare än vatten is on MHZ Choice, so if I keep up that subscription I'll get there eventually! Vår tid är nu is completely unknown to me! But it looks like it airs on the national broadcaster, SVT, and their website is down for me just now lol. I will for sure look into that one, thank you for bringing it to my attention!
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby Morgana » Sat Jul 06, 2019 4:17 am

Swedish: I read another 15% (85%/end of ch. 51/429 pages total) of Cirkeln during the first three days of July and then stalled. SPOILER --- I cried when Anna-Karin visited her grandfather in the hospital. One thing I enjoy about this book is that all of the characters are flawed but they're relatable because of it. They are frustrating at times but then I see the redeeming parts also. This is definitely my favourite book I've read in Swedish so far.

Listened to two more chapters of Röta during the same time (46 > 48). No tv since the end of June.

Russian: Only 2 more lessons from Assimil (23 > 25) and with the RT course I finished lesson 2 and did some haphazard work on lesson 3. Some of the audio was missingand because I don't have Flash installed it makes working with the course a bit fussy even without missing audio EDIT: I was wrong, I misunderstood the exercise. Assimil misspelled 25th in Russian: двадцать птый, but it should be двадцать пятый. I hope, anyway. I was lucky to catch it given that I still can't really tell how to say new words based on the spelling ¯\_(ツ)_/¯ (Not that I'll ever be able to given the mobile stress!) Using Assimil as my main, well, almost only, source is kind of weird: I've never learned a language like this before with next to no grammar explanations. Or, at least not coherent explanations or full explanations or explanations that leave you going "ok, I have the framework now for this part of the grammar even if I can't fully understand it"). It's not bothering me much though. Yet. I'm seeing some patterns, and that tells me I'll see more as I go, so I'm just trusting it.

German: Just one more lesson from Assimil (24 > 25) since last time. I feel like I should do more here because I am doing more with Russian. And then I remember Russian is actually hard.

Other: I have started work on the intro to Colloquial Polish, ie. the pronunciation lol. I can't tell the difference between most of the fricatives :lol: I'll try to convince myself to put some effort into that. I'm not starting Polish, btw. This is I don't even know what. I guess sometimes I wish Russian had a more phonemic orthography.

More other: I'm aiming to get things down to two languages and no "dabbling on the side." Other people are capable of balancing little bits of a lot but when I do that I start to feel overburdened. It's been fun exploring but I'm looking forward to making cuts and being able to make real progress. I'm not sure when but I definitely want to have decisions made before the end of August, if not earlier. I'm ready to focus.
Last edited by Morgana on Sat Jul 06, 2019 11:09 pm, edited 1 time in total.
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby cjareck » Sat Jul 06, 2019 8:38 am

Morgana wrote:Other: I have started work on the intro to Colloquial Polish, ie. the pronunciation lol. I can't tell the difference between most of the fricatives :lol: I'll try to convince myself to put some effort into that. I'm not starting Polish, btw. This is I don't even know what. I guess sometimes I wish Russian had a more phonemic orthography.

I don't know English terms connected to phonetics, but maybe you find that interesting (No, not Brzęczyszczykiewicz again ;)

What is interesting in the audio is the fact that the reader either comes from "kresy" eastern interwar period Poland or he mimics such pronunciation. The difference is in "ł" which sounds like "l".
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby Morgana » Sun Jul 07, 2019 9:33 pm

cjareck wrote:
Morgana wrote:Other: I have started work on the intro to Colloquial Polish, ie. the pronunciation lol. I can't tell the difference between most of the fricatives :lol: I'll try to convince myself to put some effort into that. I'm not starting Polish, btw. This is I don't even know what. I guess sometimes I wish Russian had a more phonemic orthography.

I don't know English terms connected to phonetics, ...
Neither do I, mostly :lol: I went to the Polish phonology page on Wikipedia, clicked on the symbols that represent the sounds I can't differentiate, and they were "fricatives" lol. Thank you for stopping by, and for the poem!
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (Russian, Swedish)

Postby Morgana » Wed Jul 10, 2019 11:38 pm

Five days have passed, and three more lessons done in each of Russian and German (25 > 28). I do wish I had more energy and determination to do lessons daily... but I also don’t worry too much about it. Except with Russian. Russian definitely falls right out of my head if I take more than the odd single day off. (Btw, I do Anki reviews on my days off, so they’re not zero contact, they just avoid processing anything new lol). German doesn’t experience this at all at this stage. In fact German feels shockingly transparent this early on and I wonder if binge watching two seasons of Dark has perhaps benefitted me a tiny amount. (That show is amazing. I hadn’t watched it before.)

I don’t think I did any more work on the RT course since last time, but if I did it was hardly anything. So still somewhere in lesson 3. I don’t find there’s much grammar explained there either, which is what I kind of wanted.

I may have called it too early with my log title: I’m still hung up on Russian stress. I’m trying to just accept it and be open to this being an additional part of the lifelong journey that could be Russian, but honestly... I feel really uncomfortable not being able to tell how to say a word from the spelling. Every other language I’ve attempted has had relatively phonetic spelling or had clear rules for how to predict pronunciation. Even French! So I guess I’m just fighting Russian on this one thing and wishing I’d just get over it. I’m not even bothered about cases or irregularities or anything anywhere near as much as the mobile stress lol. I know, it’s ridiculous.

Lastly, Swedish is on indefinite hiatus since the 8th.
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (German, Russian, Swedish)

Postby Morgana » Fri Jul 19, 2019 2:08 am

It has been 11 days without Swedish and I'm not feeling any pull back to it yet. If I bring it back I have to do something differently. I don't want to make myself watch more meh tv, but even aside from that I feel like I need to change things somehow if I'm going to keep going there.

Because I was getting down in my mind about things last week, I decided to spend a couple of evenings watching something on Netflix that had nothing to do with any of my target languages. So I watched a few episodes of season 2 of The Rain. It's Danish! No risk of temptation there. Except towards the end of one episode they had a scene where everybody was speaking Swedish. Of course. I should have seen that coming. I may be lukewarm about Swedish these days but it's still pretty cool to have it come on and surprise me with how transparent it is.

Ok. Moving on.

The end of last week plus the weekend were no good for languages (no time). Monday saw things get back to "normal" and I've gotten four lessons of each Assimil Russian and Assimil German done in that time (28 > 32). I only got one more lesson done in the RT course (3 > 4). The RT course requires a different kind of effort than Assimil. It's more active. There are no English translations for dialogues. The exercises also require you to look up vocab. Half the time spent there is looking stuff up, it's not efficient. On the other hand if I had handy translations I'd probably be putting significantly less effort into each lesson. On the third hand I'm hardly ever bothering with the course because of the pain in the a$$ it is :lol:

For information's and comparison's sake, I have to date 38 hours and 1 minute into Russian since I started on May 16 (averages out to 36 minutes/day) and with German I've got 18 hours and 13 minutes there since June 1 (averages out to 23 minutes/day). Of course it's more like 2-3 hours/day divided between the two languages for 2-3 days then doing only Anki reviews for 1-2 days.

I have begun to give some (not too serious) thought to what the transition to native materials will look like. I realize I don't know how to do this for a "big" language. For Swedish I just went straight to a 660-page YA novel. It was brutal. If I can make that transition slightly easier I think I would prefer to do so. I'll have to figure out graded readers or other? options in the next couple of months before I get to that stage.

Some comments about Russian... first, I find I need a considerable amount of time to "warm up" each day. Whatever I do first, be it review past Assimil lessons or get my Anki reviews out of the way, the activity will be a considerable struggle. It's a bit unnerving to not be able to recall most of the lesson one spent an hour on just the day before.

The foreign script doesn't do me any favours. I know, this is going to turn into an immature rant along the lines of "wah it difficult sob" so you are now warned. Plus the stress/vowel reduction blahblah. I recall the thread on here where a study found Danish children had a smaller vocabulary by a certain age compared to children from the other Scandinavian countries. This difference was attributed to the poor sound-spelling correspondence of the orthography. I am sure results like that can extrapolate to other languages like English and Russian.

Learning a new alphabet absolutely adds to the difficulty of learning a language. You absolutely can memorize the Russian alphabet in a day or two but that is a useless trick that does not translate to being able to read. I probably won't feel comfortable with Cyrillic before the Assimil course is done and probably not for at least several hundred pages of whatever I continue to read afterwards. I wish I could have found people complaining about this in literally any of the places I went looking prior to starting Russian. I would feel better. Despite all of the other difficulties Russian possesses, the alphabet and the stress are the only unenjoyable parts for me.

I will also admit some recent discussions have made me consider why I am doing a category IV language at all when I don't find language learning particularly enjoyable and I could be doing another category I/II instead :lol: I feel how easy and transparent German is and consider if there are any other Germanic languages worth it to me. I think of Romance languages. I even think of Slavic languages with a Latin script but none of them have a pop-up dictionary on Kindle. Yes, I can have petty preferences for resources like that because I am not married to the idea of any specific language.

I have no comments about German because for these first 32 lessons it is ridiculously transparent and if there is anything I find "tricky" it is child's play compared to Russian.
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Re: Morgana goes down the rabbit hole (German, Russian, Swedish)

Postby Radioclare » Fri Jul 19, 2019 9:51 am

Morgana wrote:The foreign script doesn't do me any favours. I know, this is going to turn into an immature rant along the lines of "wah it difficult sob" so you are now warned. Plus the stress/vowel reduction blahblah. I recall the thread on here where a study found Danish children had a smaller vocabulary by a certain age compared to children from the other Scandinavian countries. This difference was attributed to the poor sound-spelling correspondence of the orthography. I am sure results like that can extrapolate to other languages like English and Russian.

Learning a new alphabet absolutely adds to the difficulty of learning a language. You absolutely can memorize the Russian alphabet in a day or two but that is a useless trick that does not translate to being able to read. I probably won't feel comfortable with Cyrillic before the Assimil course is done and probably not for at least several hundred pages of whatever I continue to read afterwards. I wish I could have found people complaining about this in literally any of the places I went looking prior to starting Russian. I would feel better. Despite all of the other difficulties Russian possesses, the alphabet and the stress are the only unenjoyable parts for me.


I had exactly the same experience with the alphabet when I started learning. I was so frustrated because it feels like the internet is full of websites/polyglots telling you that you can learn the Cyrillic alphabet in X amount of time and implying that it's really not a big deal, but like you I found that there was a huge jump between memorising individual letters and actually being able to read. There are definitely some log posts somewhere which involve me ranting about this, but it may be as far back as 2014/15 so they're probably lost in the depths of the old forum.

I first started learning Serbian Cyrillic which I think exacerbated the problem, because I could already read Serbian to a reasonable level in Latin script (I'd been studying Croatian for 2 - 3 years at this point) so I felt like, once I'd memorised the alphabet, I ought to be able to read Serbian in Cyrillic equally well. Instead I found that I couldn't recognise a single word on sight, and had to sound out every word letter by letter like a 5-year old learning to read. Someone wise did comment in my log at the time to point out that I ought to find this easier with Russian, because in Serbian I had learned the vocabulary in Latin so I hadn't learned to recognise the shape of the words in Cyrillic, whereas if I learned Russian I would learn the vocabulary in Cyrillic from the start and so be better able to recognise words.

In fairness to that person (can't remember who it was!) they were right and I have found in a bit easier in Russian. But I have still found the alphabet a huge initial barrier to overcome and I think it's partly to blame for why I've had so many failed attempts at learning Russian over the years. I've had to invest a lot of time up front in learning to type and handwrite in Cyrillic, because I found I'm just incapable of learning anything in a language if I can't type or write. And as someone who normally reads really fast, learning to read in Russian has been really painful. I've stumbled my way through a handful of children's books and I think I've progressed from reading like a 5-year old to reading like a 7-year old, but it's still such hard work :lol:

The stress is also a big deal for me and probably the other reason why I've failed to learn Russian so many times, because it makes me really stressed (haha!) to look at a word and not have a clue how to pronounce it. All the other languages I've learned have been much simpler in this respect; Esperanto is obviously completely phonetic and BCMS works on the principle of "write as you speak and read as it is written", which I think is an excellent idea :D I was always quite indifferent about the letter "o" before I started learning Russian and now I hate it with a vengeance :lol:

The only way I feel I'm making progress with Russian is by using Memrise. I find SRS deathly dull but it's good because a) it makes me spell words out, and I think the better I get at spelling them, the easier they are to read and b) I add audio from Forvo for every word I learn, to make sure I never learn a new word without knowing how it sounds. Adding the audio is time-consuming and boring, but I'm trying to convince myself that this is just like having to memorise the gender of every word I learned in German.

I will also admit some recent discussions have made me consider why I am doing a category IV language at all when I don't find language learning particularly enjoyable and I could be doing another category I/II instead :lol:


I'm so glad to find out that I'm not the only person here who doesn't find language learning particularly enjoyable :lol:
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